av9 is the issue!

[nufflehatesme]

ok i was going to post this in the narrowing the tiers thread but thought it could do with its own thread. my premise is that the games major imbalance is the amount of av9 on the field. i feel av9 is too strong and too forgiving injuries wise. this leads to the claw skill which can make games that rely on their av9 lopsided (rock scissors paper etc etc). my solution is to remove some of the av9 on the field, making claw less needed.

1st up, claw reduces av to 8. still an ok pick but not a no brainer.

2nd, all elf and amazon linos are restricted to agility access. this is done to nerf the elves (as bash is being nerfed) and encourage use of all elf positionals.

3rd, piling on will be balanced as an in game mechanic, not as an attrition mechanic

TEAMS WITH MAJOR CHANGES
ORCS
blitzers are 6338 0-4
linos 5329, dirty player maybe?
idea here is to see more linos playing defense in place for offensive blitzers. ag2 to orc linos so u just dont skip the blitzers.

DWARVES
0-4 blitzers 5338 block, ts
runners lose thick skull.
slayers as plasmoids

CHAOS DWARVES
bull centaurs av8

LIZARDMEN
0-4 saurus
0-2 young bloods 7418 frenzy

KHEMRI
as plasmoids 4518 (BT is scary though, maybe grab) not sure about thick skull on positionals

OGRES
0-4 ogres
0-2 rock lobbas 5528 add strong arm (or even accurate )

CHAOS
warriors 6438, random mutation (cant get the same random as a warrior on your team). it annoys me that warriors sit on the line rather than being the all round glory player. speed should help while lower av will see em less inclined to sit on los on defense

NURGLE
beast av8? dunno tough one.

FLINGS
rostered chef

GOBBOS
up to 3 rostered bribes? this will help alot in MM leagues.

i think that covers the main av9 teams i would change. thoughts? i think the biggest boost here is to hybrid (norse, zon. undead, necro, human) though elves do ok. the loss of general access on linos would be interesting to say the least. dodge, ss, jump up is still a great combo, it does give elves another choice on doubles for linos besides guard.

the av9 bash/hybrid bash come out a wash i feel, they are a little bit more vulnerable to everyone, but alot less vulnerable to claw spam

[danton]

Some interesting ideas for sure. I do agree with you that Av 9 as it currently stands is either too good against most opponents, or too bad against Claw+MB+PO. I'm not sure if making claw reduce Av to 8 is the solution though. Another option might be to make Claw reduce armour by 1 down to a minimum of 7. So 9 gets reduced to 8 and 8 gets reduced to 7 by it, but it has no effect lower down, as is currently the case.

Taking General access off elf and amazon linos is interesting, but not sure if it's the way to go, as not letting them get Block or Wrestle on normal rolls is a big nerf and some other general skills like Kick and Fend are important for linos too.

Can you explain what you mean about balancing PO as an in game mechanic, as I don't know what you mean there.

[nufflehatesme]

cheers for the input danton. glad i aint the only one who thinks av9 is imbalanced.

re piling, to me it was strengthened to increase attrition, without thinking how it effects individual games.

i believe this has made it a tad too powerful in effecting game outcomes.

lowering teams overall av will also increase attrition, while also hopefully increasing tactical choice.

i know the nerf to elf linos is big, but i think it has to be with po toned down and less av9 on the field (you can now hurt orc blitzers with some reliability!). all elf teams have at least 8 positionals, so fielding 8 blodgers is still doable. kick and fend will be the biggest loss, and i could see a case for fend either moving to agility, or being in both general and agility.

still large amounts of theory bowl to be had my wish for a new edition is for less av9, which means less need for deadly piling on, which will see less whinin about pixels dying lol.
more seriously i think people will enjoy playing against dwarves and orcs if there is 4+ av8 out there to hurt.

[sunnyside]

I'm a bit mixed here.

Balancing things in these games is tricky, which is why rock/paper/scissors mechanisms are introduced.

That way, if one team is found to be notably surprior, than instead of collapsing into a game where everybody plays that one team, you get a bunch of coaches bringing the hate, making that team less popular.

Since other coaches were loading up on the hate skills, they aren't as well equiped to handle teams those skills don't work on, and so those teams become popular.

I believe this is why we see such a variety of teams in blood bowl. (At least in the single season league TV ranges I'm used to).

Without the balance of rock/paper/scissors I'd be worried that some teams would be simply better and they'd dominate.

[Darkson]

Nothing wrong with AV9 in "real" Blood Bowl.

[Nikolai II]

What was "Real" Blood Bowl now again?

[Darkson]

League (TT or online) play where the emphasis is on winning, rather than just playing for the sake of playing.

[Nikolai II]

Well, most coaches I see on this forum play (or end up playing) league play where winning matters. And the rest of the time at least my competitive spirit makes me want to win*

But also, even in league play "it is only a game" - I'm not getting paid to do this, so in the end I'm just playing for the sake of playing. A.k.a. 'a hobby' or 'a pastime'.

*Even with ogres, although I do go into those games well expecting to loose

[Etheric]

Originally Posted by Darkson

League (TT or online) play where the emphasis is on winning, rather than just playing for the sake of playing.

Well you look at OCC and I guess that counts as "real" BB, but the way it is set up right now you play one season in the SSC where winning counts for nothing, then the 2nd season with all the players dropping out etc you will probably be promoted if you finish in the top half of the group.

That is 18 games where winning does not count for that much. After that sure you need to win to progress, but before then not really.

[Valokiloren]

I don't really see what's so bad about AV9, or in fact, most of the current rules.

And I don't know many people who would pass up using the Orc Blitzer offensively - in fact, the "out of the box" team is probably one of the most unfair. Certainly more so than a TV1000 WElf or Human team, that's for sure, though those aren't bad either.

AV9 players tend to be slower than the lighter armoured players, because armour weighs them down. Yeah, and while busting through AV9 is difficult, it's hardly impossible. It just means that the "Killer" positional is generally only seen on a Mutation-gaining team, such as Chaos or Nurgle, and rarely on something like Humans.

The whole removing General access from some Linemen is a good idea in theory, but in practice, why are you doing that? Linemen are supposed to fill the gaps and LOS, hence the name, and while it is theoretically possible to have a team mostly using your basic player, almost every team is therefore hampering their abilities to have a brilliant team. Since only Chaos teams do it, in an All-Beastman team anyway, that or Wood Elf teams in an attempt to get a High-Reroll start, it's not productive enough to implement. I'm not afraid of a TV1000 team which only has a bunch of Amazon Linewomen, as they don't have any Block or ball skills, so inevitably get bogged down by poor dice rolls.