MB Claw n high TV

[bobman]

Wow. Just played against this combo for the first time I think. One guy just decemated my team. Three serious injuries, a death and four KO. I think all from the same guy.

It's been a real long time since I've played BB long enough to face highly skilled players. I mentioned in the CC thread the development aspect of these games is what I like best, seeing your guys evolve. But after this experience I'm questioning whether I wanna get to high TV stakes. With a team of that, other bash will get destroyed let alone any agile team that fails the first dodge.

[Nikolai II]

Technically wood elves will not suffer much worse from claw+MB than they suffer from plain MB.

I did play a Chaos team with TV 1440 that used it to field a mino, a MBClaw Block warrior, a ST 5 MBClaw Block Tackle warrior, a MBClaw Block Guard warrior and a plain MB Block warrior.

What made it only 1440 was that apart from that he had a Blodge goat, 2 block goats, 3 plain goats and an apo. 0 RR, and those rerolls he earned from kickoffs were used when a block did not take down the victim. (Because the target had block, for example)

Other than that he was a nice enough fellow, and only the tree died and a kicker lineman was niggled. (And some BH and a MNG loner.)

Aneeway, playing a lot with woodies have taught me to be used to taking lots of casualties all the time, and bad ones from time to time. (Even if I haven't had any horrible team-killing experiences yet. At most two deaths in a single game, so far.)

[danton]

Oh no - another Claw thread! Brace yourselves for the torrent of replies....

Agility teams have it easier against claw than bashers due to abundance of Blodge, being able to dodge away most of the time and the fact that a lot of their players are Av 7 anyway. The teams that suffer the most against it are Orcs and dwarfs.

[Gallows Bait]

Well a truly agile team has little to fear from Claw, since they're usually AV7 in any case, but yeah High and Dark Elves and Humans and the like can suffer from it. And widespread Mighty Blow in my opinion is far more of an issue.

But whilst this is a debate that can and probably will rage, it hopefully comes out more balanced in the long run.

Skilling up a lot of killers is generally a bit of a waste of skills - if, and I do say if, the opponent can keep away from too many blocks, then they will be beatable since they have less other skills for playing - to defend or score.

So runs the theory...

Now I've been on the receiving end and on the giving end of claws in the past, and I do know it is very powerful, especially against slower high AV teams that don't have it - Orc and Dwarf teams are your primary victims.

That said, those teams operate, again in theory, at their most efficient at lower team values than saw Nurgle or Chaos which need to reach higher levels to get the skills necessary.

They're also cheaper, so can either operate a deeper bench or can more readily rebuild their teams to make up for it.

As I know from the official forum, Etheric and others like myself are keenly aware of how badly this sucks for Orcs, Chaos and Nurgle certainly don't have it all their own way at higher TVs.

That said, Orcs and Dwarves aren't exactly top of the pile in win% overall, so I'd actually say if anything its a problem with those teams that they don't have much they can gain from high TV than a claw problem per se.

Now widespread Mighty Blow such as on an Orc team vs say Skaven, that can be brutal, but even then that's what skaven linemen are for - gutters should be able to outpace and outdodge most of it and still score a load of TDs.

So you're left with the "Middle of the Road" teams suffering most - such as Humans, and their win% I think reflect that - not able to dodge away and not tough enough to survive.

Why did I pick them for OCC again?

[sunnyside]

Personally I think claw was a great addition to the game in that it provides balancing "hate".

If your league featured a ton of finess teams, than you could take tackle and disturbing presence.

If it features a ton of high AV than bring the clawed killers.

I think the existance of hate skills are why most league's w/l/d stats are as balanced as they are among most teams. (aside from the negatrait teams that are supposed to be challenging).

Though an underlying theme in all this is as you get to higher TV the game gets more lethal. You can pile on deadly offensive skills, but defense doesn't rise the same way, and so mortality generally rises with TV.

You could see that as letting noobs and new teams play the game with kid gloves on to ease them into it.

Or that the 100TV gloves were just right and the razorwire knuckles at high TV slaughtering players that you've developed, named, and gotten to know just sucks a bunch of the fun out of the game.

[bobman]

I guess really I was just suprised at how easily it tore(sp) through my team. Balance isn't really an argument I wanted to get into to be honest, I'm a long way from kansas now (15+ yrs ago when I played long enough to get a player past 3 skills).

Maybe the addition of such skills is an antidote to the bash power that I remember back then.

It just felt like playing with a bash team against a bash team that mutalated players so easily made it a one way thing. A team of those and it would be a waste of time.

But then my team wasn't particularly TV managed. But then if it was I wouldn't have had all the reserves I ended up needing.

I'm tired and confused

[Kaz]

go to the official forum and read the "is bash overpowered 'AKA' the Claw thread" and you will be even more confused!

[Darkson]

Because Blood Bowl was never designed for huge open-ended "leagues", where teams are matched by TV, there may be a balance issue with the Claw/Mb/PO synergy - notice the "may".

Just means if you want to play in MM, you either manage your TV, or expect to play Chaos teams built like this at high TV.

Play in a "proper" league, as close as the designers of BB intended, and you'll see it less (if at all).

[bobman]

Again I dont really want to get into the balance issue if it's such a big can of worms.

But this wasn't in MM. With one guy MNG 2 players and killing 1 if I ever get to the top, or near, flight am I gonna have to rebuild my team after each encounter. Harsh.

I thought with the more solid teams losses would be less of an issue, you expect it with elves and such.

I did have a Norse team kill 2 BO on TT, the only two injuries of the game. But I consider that out of the ordinary.

[Nikolai II]

Originally Posted by Darkson

Play in a "proper" league, as close as the designers of BB intended, and you'll see it less (if at all).

Netsmurf has easily built up a 4*Claw+MB team over two seasons (like, what, 18 games? less?) and the only thing a "proper" league can do about it is nag on him until he plays something else more conductive to shared fun.

Edit: Although I guess maybe the designers always intended the game to be fun for only the winner? http://0-12linemen.blogspot.com/2009...g-fun-but.html