Stalling, a valid tactic?

[Narly Bird]

This thread follows on from some discussions we were having in the Crunch Cup thread about stalling being a valid tactic or not. Whilst its a little hard to argue ethics and sportsmanship in a game that promotes fouling downed players, i am of the opinion that stalling is not a sporting tactic to use and reduces the fun of the game.

The only exception to this, as Thanatos said, is when you are playing in a serious tournament and therefore are playing to win. In a friendly game, it is not an option in my mind.

Whilst it could easily be said that the point of playing the game is to win, i would say that the point of the game is for both players to have a great time playing the game. I really don't think the tactic of stalling makes for a fun game, quite the opposite. Who wouldn't rather have a fast flowing game, than one where a bashy team stands by the opposition end-zone with the ball for a few turns just to run down the clock?

And if you think of some of the best games you've had or have ever seen, did they employ such a tactic? I would guess not. And if they did, perhaps you'd be better off playing Warhammer Fantasy or 40k. Then you don't even have to worry about the ball!

I think my view is somewhat coloured by me being a Cyanide player and not having played the tabletop game for many years. On Cyanide the ratio of bashy to dodgy teams is about 3-1, so this tactic is regularly employed in MM games and makes for a very unfun game. It gets very old, very fast.

I'd be interested in hearing other peoples opinion of the tactic.

N.

One last thing. It actually mentions somewhere in LRB5 rulebook (maybe 6 also?) that delaying scoring to instead lay in the boot is a valid tactic. So obviously the designers think there is a place for it. I would just argue that its use makes a game less fun and therefore it should only be used in must win tourni situations.

[Netsmurf]

Originally Posted by coachman

you can persuade people to finish the drive early quite easily with 5 players gang fouling their prized rat ogre each turn

That is so right I always try to do it when opponents stall. Last season I had extreme fun foulkilling a wood elf thrower with 50+ SPP - he was the leading passer in all of the league - not good at dodging though. As he started to stall in second half - out of bitterness I guess - I had fun sending his treeman out with a niggling injury. Match ended 2-2 but I had some great fun.

On the point: Stalling is fine by me - but I seldom do it. I want the SPP from scoring an ekstra TD.

[Smiler6310]

I think stalling is a perfectly valid tactic much like caging or crowd pushing.

Turn watching or stalling is a valid tactic for some races more than others. Lets face it teams such as Dwarves or Khemri, and to a lesser extent others such as Orcs or Chaos have slow players and will struggle against a faster team if they score early and then allow the fast team 2 or more turns with which to equalise/take the lead. It makes sense for them to delay for as long as possible.

On the flip side of the coin a fast/agile can delay if possible to stop a slow/bashy team that can't drive down the pitch very quickly from having many turns to score.

Personally I feel it takes skill to stall well ie not having your team ripped apart whiilst your stalling. I can understand why people dislike it and there have been many times when I found it frustrating whilst my opponant stalled. I try now to postion better and not let my opponant have a chance to stall.

[Coach]

I would stall pretty much whatever the game was unless I was specifically teaching someone, then I would explain to them what it is and that I would normally do it, but then score.

Otherwise even in friendlies I would stall, to not do so with a lot of teams basically gives the opponent a really big advantage. That is just as fun as stalling and a lot of the time when you stall it is down to the other team not defending against stalling very well.

Not going to go too in depth as I'll eventually get some articles up, it is a subject that has been discussed to death on every Blood Bowl forum that has ever existed!

[Narly Bird]

I probably need some tactics about stopping the stall or making the opposition end it. I guess my problem is that i generally play as the weaker races (Skaven, DE, Human) and sometimes end up with only 6 or so players on the pitch after a brutal drive from a bashy team (orcs, chaos, dwarfs). Of my 6 players a few will be down with a couple of the opposition in their tackle zones. So basically nothing i can do. To stand up would mean to get pushed over again and the few that are standing wouldnt be able to stand up to the stalling cage.

Anyway, I'll wait until you post an article about it.

But i still honestly think it makes for a less fun game, even though it seems to be a commonly accepted tactic. Even when i play as a bashy team and have the chance to stall, i generally wouldn't as i feel its a lot less fun and i would much rather play a full 16 turns than stand around for a few.

N.

[mrpier]

The popular 2-1 grind tactic for bashy teams employs stalling tactics, I think coach has written an article about that already, been a while since I read it so maybe it mentions stalling more indirectly.

[Ian]

Stalling is a perfectly valid tactic, and especially in friendlies the way to stop it is to either continually try stupid attempts at hitting the ball-carrier until he realises that all it takes is a couple of absurd dice for you to get through or, as mentioned already, just start gang-fouling every turn until he scores.

I think even in friendlies stalling is acceptable and even as agility teams. If you score and you're playing bashers then you're essentially giving them the remaining turns to bash you on their terms, whereas if you stall you can often reduce them to just one or two blocks and a blitz in a turn. It can be a team preservation tactic as well as a scoreline preserving one.

And let's be honest, it's as easy to roll two sixes as it is the snake-eyes we all dread, and sometimes all you need is a few 4s and 5s to break through a stalling team's ranks so it's not like they're not giving you a chance.

I personally tend not to stall in friendlies if I think I can get more SPP by scoring sooner but if somebody else does it it might annoy me but I don't think what they're doing is WRONG.

[Murkglow]

I would have to say Stalling is every bit as valid a tactic as fouling or injuring players that you didn't "have to". I mean it's not just in Blood Bowl even, most sports (that have a timer anyway) have stalling in them. American Football, Basketball, and so on all can have "stalls" in them to hold on to leads when giving the ball back to the opposition would be a disadvantage.

Perhaps I am too focused on "winning" at the expense of fun but to me not playing the game to the best of your ability (and that includes all tactics that you know of, ie stalling) is almost rude to your opponent. Or at least I would find it rude. I want to know that when either I or my opponent wins it was because we each did our very best. If I win because my opponent didn't stall and gave me the ball back too early it's going to sour that game for me. I didn't earn that win, I was given it.

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Narly Bird

Whilst it could easily be said that the point of playing the game is to win, i would say that the point of the game is for both players to have a great time playing the game.

I don't recall who said it first but:
"The objective of the game is to win; the point is to have fun"

But as Murkglow said; in a game I totally expect my opponent to play to the best of their ability. Anything else is offensive to my opponent (with the obvious exception of teaching a newbie).
This includes stalling and while it can be frustrating to realise with like 4 turns to go that it is mathematically impossible for you to win, then that is too bad, should have played better and hopefully you can do better next time.

[Narly Bird]

Well, it seems the concensus is that stalling is a valid tactic and not poor sportsmanship, even in friendly games.

So even though i personally think it makes the game a bit less fun when people do it, i won't moan or whinge about it when they do. Its a fact of the game.

Coach, hurry up and post some anti-stalling tactics!

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On a totally unrelated topic, 2nd round of Crunch Cup will be held tomorrow. Keep an eye out for the match reports on the Crunch Cup thread in this forum.

Round 2 has my Lizards vs Thanatos' DElfs and Coachmans Gobbo's (who are currently ranked 1st) vs Ravens Skaven.