Cyanide Blood Bowl 2 Bretonnian Skills

[nufflehatesme]

bretonnian development seems pretty straight forward:

blitzers - all tackle. one to roll a stat gets sure hands. one to roll a double gets mb. one gets frenzy. one gets leader. fend and pro seem like decent later skills out of whats available. nos could maybe be useful.

blockers - guard, mb, standfirm/grab/tackle/po/block. probably make a pomber out of one, but mainly stick to pumping out guard and mb. fend could be a decent 3rd skill over stand firm if mass fend turns out to be effective on this team. these guys are like your black orcs on orc teams, so feed them the td's to get to 16 spp's and mb.

peasants - block or wrestle for defensive peasants, dirty player for offensive peasants. so probably 2 with dp and 3 block/wrestle. cant see many surviving to get a second skill.

 

[TravelScrabble]

Fend and pro are pretty suboptimal skills for a start, freny is only ok on a str 3 piece - sure if you get the stats and doubles that is good but if you don'y they're bloaty and expensive straight away.

If you do get them Bretonnians are still only like slightly more capable humans without a thrower or ogre.

I mean don't get me wrong I think they're fine, even a bit interesting at low TV so they're fine as a tourney team, but in perpetual leagues they are very meh - Slann, Pact and Khorne are all more viable. So why give us Bretonnians in a game where perpetual league is the dominant format? Or if they were going to, why not let the blitzers keep their strength access - but I guess I'd have to ask Plasmoid that.

 

[Limdood]

I would definitely not give blitzers MB. I'd give Bret blitzers guard on a double, and give MB to the blockers

Blitzers would be 2-3 get tackle, 1 gets leader (maybe). I could see building two of them to be either a pass/NOS combo or build a pure passer (other one joins the tacklers). Doubles would be all guard on the first double. In fact i'd strongly consider sacking any blitzer that doesn't get a double on the first levelup because...

...the blockers do well with tackle, MB, strip ball. Blockers make great ready made ballhawk/killers

i agree with TS, the brets seem like suboptimal humans, ESPECIALLY with the changes to human catchers. Bretonians get 6 starting block/wrestle players at the cost of no agility access, no big guy, and low AV linos. Humans have better movement, better AV, better ST access players, same agility and better agility skill access. the only benefit brets have over humans is the cheap fend linos, which are a mixed bag with AV7 and AG2. I'd have rather seen bret peasants with MV5, ST3, AG3, AV8 and fend for 50k.

 

[nufflehatesme]

i would suggest strength access on blitzers would make bretonnians too good, and switching it with the blockers makes it basically a human team.
you say only slightly more capable than humans as if its a bad thing. humans are good. they live and die by the blitzers however. bretonnians get blockers to shoulder a lot of the load (mainly getting guard on the field).
for example, throwers on human teams are taken for easy access to sure hands. taking sure hands on a blitzer makes the thrower redundant, but you cant really do that as you need all the strength skills you can get on blitzers. even then, a + stat on a blitzer can make it worthwhile again to take sure hands and skip the thrower.
bretonnians dont need to worry about this. any stat on a blitzer will make him a great ball carrier so give him sure hands next.
the ogre is taken on human teams to give you some sort of leverage against high st teams, if taken at all in perpetual league. 4 dauntless should be a much more efficient substitute.

here is a team i could see myself having after 100 games with bretonnians, accounting for deaths and whatnot and only 2 doubles/stats on the whole team.

blitzer - tackle, +ma, sure hands, fend, leader = 220k
blitzer - tackle, mb, frenzy, pro = 200k
blitzer - tackle, fend = 150k
blitzer - fend = 130k

blocker - mb, po, tackle, guard, stand firm = 170k
blocker - guard, mb, stand firm = 130k
blocker - guard, mb = 110k
blocker - guard = 90k

linesmen - block =60k
linesmen - block= 60k
linesmen - dp = 60k
linesmen - dp =60k
linesmen = 40k
linesmen = 40k
linesmen =40k

2 rerolls = 140k
1 apo = 50k
7 fan factor = 70k
1 ass coach = 10k
1 cheerleader = 10k

1840 tv, 15 players. seems pretty solid to me for perpetual play. defense is your basic 3-3-5 (rule of 5) with blitzers 3 and 4 taking the wide position in the second row so you have a wall of fend v pombers. enough tackle to harass elves and enough guard and dauntless to stand up to bash.

 

[nufflehatesme]

I would definitely not give blitzers MB. I'd give Bret blitzers guard on a double, and give MB to the blockers

Blitzers would be 2-3 get tackle, 1 gets leader (maybe). I could see building two of them to be either a pass/NOS combo or build a pure passer (other one joins the tacklers). Doubles would be all guard on the first double. In fact i'd strongly consider sacking any blitzer that doesn't get a double on the first levelup because...

...the blockers do well with tackle, MB, strip ball. Blockers make great ready made ballhawk/killers

i agree with TS, the brets seem like suboptimal humans, ESPECIALLY with the changes to human catchers. Bretonians get 6 starting block/wrestle players at the cost of no agility access, no big guy, and low AV linos. Humans have better movement, better AV, better ST access players, same agility and better agility skill access. the only benefit brets have over humans is the cheap fend linos, which are a mixed bag with AV7 and AG2. I'd have rather seen bret peasants with MV5, ST3, AG3, AV8 and fend for 50k.

the team needs guard more than anything else. taking the blockers away from guard and hoping to roll doubles on blitzers for it seems like a bad idea. mb as a double for blitzers is good as you only really need one with mb to blitz. i want a block, mb blitzer on any team i play as block is better than wrestle to injure someone.
i'd also argue that bretonnians are optimised humans, as bretonnian blitzers can be more specialised, rather than the standard guard, mb, tackle (stand firm, po, dodge) builds of human blitzers. the blockers of bretonnians focus on guard and mb, while blitzers can go ball skills, or bashy blitzer skills. 2 of each is probably the go.

 

[TravelScrabble]

blitzer - tackle, +ma, sure hands, fend, leader = 220k
blitzer - tackle, mb, frenzy, pro = 200k
blitzer - tackle, fend = 150k
blitzer - fend = 130k

blocker - mb, po, tackle, guard, stand firm = 170k
blocker - guard, mb, stand firm = 130k
blocker - guard, mb = 110k
blocker - guard = 90k

linesmen - block =60k
linesmen - block= 60k
linesmen - dp = 60k
linesmen - dp =60k
linesmen = 40k
linesmen = 40k
linesmen =40k

2 rerolls = 140k
1 apo = 50k
7 fan factor = 70k
1 ass coach = 10k
1 cheerleader = 10k

1840 tv, 15 players. seems pretty solid to me for perpetual play. defense is your basic 3-3-5 (rule of 5) with blitzers 3 and 4 taking the wide position in the second row so you have a wall of fend v pombers. enough tackle to harass elves and enough guard and dauntless to stand up to bash.

Strength access would make the blitzers too good compared to what? Werewolfs, gutters, war dancers? I don't see it myself and they're plenty expensive.

As for the team I look at that and it seems underwhelming to me. You have 4 guard which is ok, but at 1800ish TV most teams you face are going to have about as much (humans, zons, chaos, orcs, undead...) or more (chorfs, dwarfs) as well as more strength a lot of the time which is going to make the bash war hard - dauntless does nothing to help you take less blocks after all. There's no dodge and not much in the way of sf/ss to help positional play and no reliable passing option. Combined with all that av 7 I can see this side struggling against bash. Though all the fend is definitely annoying and will help your mobility for sure.

You have 4 tackle which is good against elves, but no gravy like dt or tents to help lock them down so you're going to need them to be rolling 1s. 2 dp is nice.

You have a killer but with no nice bonus skills like ju, frenzy or juggs to make him more effective so he's not exactly stellar at his job, and you have a frenzy guy who is going to be a great safety. Him I like, though pro is only ok.

You have an ok ball carrier, but he doesn't have dodge or +agi or anything like that which would make him more reliable, and he's 220k!.

Its not terrible but I'd definitely consider it on the weaker side.

 

[JimmyFantastic]

Yeah they are pretty trashy at 1800+. Humans are trashy at that TV too but at least Humans have good Blitzers, a Brogre and potential OTS play.

 

[nufflehatesme]

Strength access would make the blitzers too good compared to what? Werewolfs, gutters, war dancers? I don't see it myself and they're plenty expensive.

As for the team I look at that and it seems underwhelming to me. You have 4 guard which is ok, but at 1800ish TV most teams you face are going to have about as much (humans, zons, chaos, orcs, undead...) or more (chorfs, dwarfs) as well as more strength a lot of the time which is going to make the bash war hard - dauntless does nothing to help you take less blocks after all. There's no dodge and not much in the way of sf/ss to help positional play and no reliable passing option. Combined with all that av 7 I can see this side struggling against bash. Though all the fend is definitely annoying and will help your mobility for sure.

You have 4 tackle which is good against elves, but no gravy like dt or tents to help lock them down so you're going to need them to be rolling 1s. 2 dp is nice.

You have a killer but with no nice bonus skills like ju, frenzy or juggs to make him more effective so he's not exactly stellar at his job, and you have a frenzy guy who is going to be a great safety. Him I like, though pro is only ok.

You have an ok ball carrier, but he doesn't have dodge or +agi or anything like that which would make him more reliable, and he's 220k!.

Its not terrible but I'd definitely consider it on the weaker side.

too good as a team, not as a player. 8 strength access, 8 block/wrestle, av8 and ma6/7 seems too good.
the way i look at bretonnians is blockers are slightly worse human blitzers, but not by too much and should fill similar roles (guard). bretonnian blitzers bring way more to the table than what throwers, catchers, and the ogre does for humans, and they get to work off the bretonnian blockers as well. i.e. you get 4 bretonnian blitzers working together with 4 "human lite" blitzers

 

[TravelScrabble]

Hmm well I think it's pretty obvious I disagree with that. Especially the bit about blitzers bringing way more than str 5 agi access and a cheap sure hands plus pass. But time will tell.

I will say this though. The previous incarnation of plasmoids blitzers were ma8 and str access and seemed too strong. As a general principle I believe in changing one thing at a time when balancing and I think nerfing MA and skill access at the same time was too much.

But as I say time will tell.

 

[nufflehatesme]

a good human team generally consists of 4 skilled blitzers with a combination of guard, mb, tackle, po, stand firm (jump up, dodge, stats). this will be backed up by 2-4 good players hopefully with stats/doubles from either the linesmen, thrower, catcher or ogre.

i see a good bretonnian team as 4 skilled blockers with a combination of guard, mb, po, stand firm, block, tackle, fend, grab (sidestep, jump up, +st). this will be backed up by 2-4 specialised blitzers - runner, receiver, frenzy blitzer, mb blitzer etc. any stats or doubles will make these guys good.

 

[JimmyFantastic]

Human Blitzers > Bret Blockers by far though.

 

[nufflehatesme]

Human Blitzers > Bret Blockers by far though.

sure, but 4 bretonnian blitzers > 4 human linesmen/thrower/catcher/ogre by even further
primarily because one double for mb makes them decent human blitzers (mb, tackle, dauntless, frenzy, pro). you can even make slightly overpriced throwers out of them, or catcher with one double for dodge. the overpricing is mitigated by blanket dauntless to cover no ogre, and the fact you are now starting with 8 wrestle/block players from the start (not to be overlooked).

the blockers just need guard and mb to help in the trench's while your blitzers get to do the flashy stuff. maybe i am underestimating how terrible wrestle is on the blockers, but i see these guys having more potential than humans in the long run, and definitely a stronger earlier game.

 

[Nikolai II]

Hmm well I think it's pretty obvious I disagree with that. Especially the bit about blitzers bringing way more than str 5 agi access and a cheap sure hands plus pass. But time will tell.

I will say this though. The previous incarnation of plasmoids blitzers were ma8 and str access and seemed too strong. As a general principle I believe in changing one thing at a time when balancing and I think nerfing MA and skill access at the same time was too much.

But as I say time will tell.

Blitzers are supposed to be the stars of the team. If removing S was needed it would have been interesting to see A added as a replacement, to keep the "close to humans but different" line active, having as much A access as humans (and more, if you count how much is likely to be on the pitch at once)

 

[coachman]

I think catch is interesting. Its hard to get on the human team (except on catchers which are universally hated).

This allows for a flowing running game with fairly safe hand offs and even short passes.

Without bb2 I cannot give them a spin though.

 

[Mephiston]

(except on catchers which are universally hated).

A compleatly false statement... since atleast one person really likes them... me...

Anywho...

Like I said on Cyanides forum... I think the thing that a lot of people are probably getting hung up on, is that they have named the Bretonnian blitzers as "Blitzers".

Bretonnians blitzers are way more then just "Blitzers", if anything I would claim that they are not Blitzers at all. To me they seem to be an all-in-one combo of Throwers, Catchers, and Blitzers... or I guess I would more want to say that they are players who where found to have the potential to become good Throwers, but who where taught to brawl and catch the ball first. In terms of American Football, they seem to be a Quarterback+Running back combination, and in a lot of ways they could become a "Dual-threat quarterback" or "Running Quarterback".

So, in my mind, "Blitzer" is compleatly the wrong word to use for these players... in a lot of ways calling them "Runners" would have been much closer to the truth of what they are, because I feel they fit in a lot better if you line them up next to the 4 available "Runners" in the game (Dark Elves, Dwarven, Norse, and Skaven). But... since it's Bretonnia... calling them "Runners" would not sound as cool, or as fitting for a Bretonnian noble... calling them "Blitzers" just basicly sounds better.

So yeah... I do belive that the name given to them is what is causing some people to have a problem with them, since they can not naturally continue to develop into what Blitzers are normally built towards (needing doubles to do so)... where as if they had been called "Runners" I think a lot of the same people would possibly thing "Yeah, I can see that, a Runner with a dash of Catcher and Blitzer added to them". Granted, some would argue that not having Agility access then would rule them out as Runners, but since the Dwarven Runner does not have Agility access, and half of the Runners have access to Pass (Dark Elves, and Runners), I don't see that as much of a problem.

 

[nufflehatesme]

A compleatly false statement... since atleast one person really likes them... me...

Anywho...

Like I said on Cyanides forum... I think the thing that a lot of people are probably getting hung up on, is that they have named the Bretonnian blitzers as "Blitzers".

Bretonnians blitzers are way more then just "Blitzers", if anything I would claim that they are not Blitzers at all. To me they seem to be an all-in-one combo of Throwers, Catchers, and Blitzers... or I guess I would more want to say that they are players who where found to have the potential to become good Throwers, but who where taught to brawl and catch the ball first. In terms of American Football, they seem to be a Quarterback+Running back combination, and in a lot of ways they could become a "Dual-threat quarterback" or "Running Quarterback".

So, in my mind, "Blitzer" is compleatly the wrong word to use for these players... in a lot of ways calling them "Runners" would have been much closer to the truth of what they are, because I feel they fit in a lot better if you line them up next to the 4 available "Runners" in the game (Dark Elves, Dwarven, Norse, and Skaven). But... since it's Bretonnia... calling them "Runners" would not sound as cool, or as fitting for a Bretonnian noble... calling them "Blitzers" just basicly sounds better.

So yeah... I do belive that the name given to them is what is causing some people to have a problem with them, since they can not naturally continue to develop into what Blitzers are normally built towards (needing doubles to do so)... where as if they had been called "Runners" I think a lot of the same people would possibly thing "Yeah, I can see that, a Runner with a dash of Catcher and Blitzer added to them". Granted, some would argue that not having Agility access then would rule them out as Runners, but since the Dwarven Runner does not have Agility access, and half of the Runners have access to Pass (Dark Elves, and Runners), I don't see that as much of a problem.

interesting point. runner is probably a more accurate name, and easier to explain with the fluff they were going for of noblemen wanting glory on the football field.
might make the no knight conundrum easier to explain: knights got no time for peasant sports, hence runners (noblemen) over blitzers (knights)

 

[Mephiston]

interesting point. runner is probably a more accurate name, and easier to explain with the fluff they were going for of noblemen wanting glory on the football field.
might make the no knight conundrum easier to explain: knights got no time for peasant sports, hence runners (noblemen) over blitzers (knights)

*nods*

Another aspect that I think is also tripping some people over about it all is that Cyanide basicly put both the Blitzers, and the Blockers, in essentially real armor. They look like Knights, so as such people are going to continue to think of both of them as Knights... no matter what the actual fluff about the Bretonnian team actually might be.

Of course, I don't have any problem with that really... since they are Bretonnians after all, and one of the main things that really defines Bretonnia as a country are their Knights, and the main reason as to why Bretonnia has always been my favorit faction in Warhammer Fantasy is because of their Knights. And as such I would have been disappointed if none of the players in the Bretonnian team had looked like Knights.

I dont think they needed to put the Blockers in such armor though, since the Blockers are only commoners... actually, I am ok with the Blockers being in armor, I would just have prefered it if it did not look so knightly. Maybe reduce the amount of armor that the Blockers have on. But heck, even only a different helmet would have been enough to make all the difference for me with the Blockers, a different helmet would have made Blockers look less like Knights and more like skilled commoners... maybe a helmet like this.

 

[JimmyFantastic]

one of the main things that really defines Bretonnia as a country are their Knights, and the main reason as to why Bretonnia has always been my favorit faction in Warhammer Fantasy is because of their Knights. And as such I would have been disappointed if none of the players in the Bretonnian team had looked like Knights.

This is exactly why Plasmoid made a bad roster. Noblemen that are runners are fine and all but why aren't they just Blitzers on a Human team?
If you are going to make a Bretonnian team they NEED Knights, as much as I hate the Warhammerisation of BB.

 

[Mephiston]

True, I guess... but aren't the Human teams Empire though? That has always been my assumption, one based on what little fluff you can find about it in the various books and rules.

Bretonnians are a team that happends to be somewhat difficult to make a BB team for, just due to the structure of their sociaty and culture, the vast difference between nobles and the commoners and peasants, that Knights probably would not lower them selves to play BB, etc. So as such I think that on some aspects of it all one would have to basicly just ignore that, ignore things which would normally just not make sence for a Bretonnian BB team.

There are several ways you can go with that, and I think that this current roster is ok, if anything it is a pretty interesting roster... personally the only thing I have a real problem with is that the Blockers have Wrestle (a skill I do not like)... not to fond of AG2 linemen either, or 70K RR, Wrestle is just the major one for me... other then that I am compleatly fine with them.

 

[Valcurdra]

I am about 10 games in with Bretts, thoughts so far, also posted elsewhere.

Absolutely loving fend now, I underestimated how handy this skill is in low TV.

Skilling up the blockers and peasants is a bit tricky though, my blitzers are hogging all the spp so far which could become a problem later. Especially once powerful killers start to appear on opposing teams.

They seem to play best as a very reliable bash/running style.

So far in terms of skills, I have 1 blocker with guard and aside from that only my blitzers have leveled up. Got one leader with strip ball, who will eventually take tackle too, one with sure hands +mv as a ball carrier, and one with +1av as a catcher. So far these players are proving an excellent combo at low TV, I will probably build 2 of the blockers into wracklers to counter blodge which is problematic for this team so far, and the other into guard MB roadblocks.