Tzeentch Horrors idea

[Street]

So decided to come back to this and try and make a team I thought could be fitting using 2020 rules. Here is result (left my old stunty version there but it obviously is outdated for the 2020 rules)

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or input on it?

Idea 1: (2020 ruleset team idea)

Spoiler

Stats are:
MA / ST / AG / PA / AV

Tzeentch Horrors:
Apo: Yes
Special Rules : Favoured of Tzeentch
Tier: 2
Team rerolls 60k

Blue Horror 0-12:
Cost 45k
Skill Access: Primary= G/M, Secondary= S/A/P
6/3/4+/5+/8+
Arm Bar
Extra Arms

Pink Horror 0-4:
Cost: 100K
Skill Access: Primary= M/S/A Secondary= G/P
5/4/4+/4+/9+
Arm Bar
Monstrous Mouth
Extra Arms

Tzeentch Heralds 0-2:
Cost: 90k
Skill Access: Primary= G/A/M Secondary= S/P
6/3/3+/4+/9+
Horns
Extra Arms
Regeneration

Chaos Spawn 0-1:
Cost: 140K
Skill Access: Primary= M/S Secondary= G/A/P
5/5/5+/-/10+
Bone Head (Or really stupid)
Loner
Mighty Blow
Shadowing
Regeneration

Idea 2: (Old stunty version)

Spoiler

Tzeentch Horrors:
Apo: No
Star Players : Chaos (Would love to give them, and all the other chaos god teams 1 or 2 unique stars)
Team rerolls 70k (Maybe lower to 60k?)

Blue Horror 0-16:
Cost: 50K
Skill Access: Normals = M/A Doubles = S/G/P
6/2/3/7
Dodge
Stunty
Right Stuff
Dauntless

Pink Horror 0-4:
Cost: 110k
Skill Access: Normals = M/S/A Doubles = G/P
5/4/2/8
Grab
Extra Arms
Throw teammate
Regeneration

Burning Horror 0-1:
Cost: 60k
Skill Access: Normals = A Doubles = G/S/P
6/3/4/7
Bombardier
Secret Weapon
No Hands
Regeneration

Chaos Spawn 0-1:
Cost: 140K
Skill Access: Normals = M/S Doubles = G/A/P
5/5/1/9
Bone Head (Or really stupid)
Loner
Grab
Mighty Blow
Shadowing
Regeneration

Breakdowns:
Blue Horrors;

These guys are pretty much goblins, with mutation access and dauntless. They are slightly underpriced at 50k, though I find the team too hard to build if they are more expensive.

Making them valid price would require removing Rightstuff and then replacing Throw teammate on the Pink Horrors with +MA on them.

Possible changes could be to change them to AG2 and give them extra arms to justify the cheaper cost more. Other option could be remove right stuff and throw teammate options from the team. Also decay is an option to show the magical instability in the Blue Horrors

Would love for these guys to have regen but find it hard to justify how expensive it would make them or how underpriced they would need to be.​

Pink Horrors;

Those familiar with Simyin teams on fumbbl may notice a huge similarity here and that is on purpose. These are the same as Gorillas with mutation access, regen and throw teammate. Are underpriced by 10k. I know throw teammate on this breaks a rule but makes the team more unique than just having another big guy throwing the stunty players.

Removing TTM or moving it to the chaos spawn is an option if needed, otherwise don't think these guys should need any tweaking.​

Burning Horror;

This is a ST3, AG4, regen, no hands copy of a goblin bomber that doesn't have stunty. Amazing at throwing fireball bombs in magical flux, sometimes an agile foe can catch these and throw them back at the Tzeentch Horrors. Burning horrors only have fireball launchers and no hands to catch return fire.

This player also breaks a rule by having AG4 and ST4 on same team, however due to no hands and being a secret weapon I feel this is an ok exception. Though it is also breaking a rule of having a secret weapon on a newly created team. Can do without these guys but I feel they add a nice something extra to the roster so thought I would keep it here for now.

Not really any ideas to nerf these other than a price increase, maybe giving it loner so it can't reroll bomb throws reliably, idea behind loner is it is more a creature for combat and not created around the idea of playing a team game of bloodbowl.​

Chaos Spawn;

It is a regen mutating ogre. (Or can be nerfed to a faster troll) the big difference is shadowing, not great with MA5 but also not useless and unique for a big guy with a skill that would not normally be taken or seen very often, idea being it mindlessly focus on pursuing its targets.

Could also be given TTM in addition to or instead of Pink Horrors having it. Only real nerf to this could be to remove it altogether if the team is somehow too strong with it. If team is too weak could buff to MA6, may be currently overcosted compared to say beast of nurgle.​

Final points:
Idea is all the horrors are fresh and the mutations are expected to develope as they play.

Other note, could take down AG on Blue horrors and give whole team extra arms which would be like going into the Simyin team build style even more, though less agile and certainly fit with the Horrors theme, however I feel the Blue Horrors can't really be less than AG3.

 

[tys123]

I think the Blue horrors are too small.
I haven't played Warhammer for a while so they may have made them weaker but they always used to be ST3 with the Pink Horrors ST5
Maybe 6/3/3/7 Regen for 50K

As for Stars turn Count Luthor into a Daemonette to replace Morg. The stats and skills all seem appropriate.

 

[Street]

I think the Blue horrors are too small.
I haven't played Warhammer for a while so they may have made them weaker but they always used to be ST3 with the Pink Horrors ST5
Maybe 6/3/3/7 Regen for 50K

As for Stars turn Count Luthor into a Daemonette to replace Morg. The stats and skills all seem appropriate.

I mostly did Blue horrors like that as I thought a stunty focused chaos team would be nice. Part of the reason I gave all the Blue horrors Dauntless was to make up for them being ST2, if I gave them ST3 I would get rid of Dauntless.

Putting Pink horrors up to ST5 I feel would be too much unless I reworked the team.

What do you think between Grab or Frenzy on the Pinks? I want them to have Grab as no current team starts with it but don't know if frenzy is more fitting.

Edit: Just to clarify more on player strength amounts, Khorne were very much lowered in Strength than you would expect so took same liberties here to make something more unique and hopefully balanced, its not like bloodbowl universe Horrors have to be as strong as other versions.

 

[tys123]

either Grab or Frenzy works.
I just don't think the current Blue Horror is any good.
The brimstone is just better. Dodging on 2+ , same movement and about as hard to knock over as FA is about as good as ST2 but is 40K cheaper.
So I would be taking the 4 pinks , loads of brimstones and fouling like crazy.
You could reduce the price for them as dauntless on ST2 isn't worth much and neither is regen on a goblin.
Dauntless and horns is a horrible combo so would remove the main Mutation for underworld goblins that blitz.

That said Brimstone is probably too cheap
A +MA , +AV , Foul Appearance snotling with Mutation access for 10K more than the standard one.
A Big Hand Brimstone would be great.

Also change the Blues from 0-16 to 0-8 for thematic reasons. 4/8/16 looks better than 4/16/16 for players that divide.

 

[Street]

either Grab or Frenzy works.
I just don't think the current Blue Horror is any good.
The brimstone is just better. Dodging on 2+ , same movement and about as hard to knock over as FA is about as good as ST2 but is 40K cheaper.
So I would be taking the 4 pinks , loads of brimstones and fouling like crazy.
You could reduce the price for them as dauntless on ST2 isn't worth much and neither is regen on a goblin.
Dauntless and horns is a horrible combo so would remove the main Mutation for underworld goblins that blitz.

That said Brimstone is probably too cheap
A +MA , +AV , Foul Appearance snotling with Mutation access for 10K more than the standard one.
A Big Hand Brimstone would be great.

Also change the Blues from 0-16 to 0-8 for thematic reasons. 4/8/16 looks better than 4/16/16 for players that divide.

Suppose I could justify undercosting the Blues if I then increase the cost of the brimstone at same time. I agree brimstones seem great value for money but its what the costing parameters used for original teams worked out at. ST1 is a big deal though as most players 3 dice them 1 on 1, but Foul appearnce does help a lot so can see justification for over pricing them.

Main reason I put Blues at max of 16 is so if the deaths into new players happens you can always get them. But as I reworked that to not be free extra players I guess the lack of a limit isn't needed as much.

Edit: Adjusted original post, increasing cost of Brimstones to 40k and decreasing blues to 60k, Can't see them being decreased below that as Regen is a big deal on mass.

 

[Mr. Ghoti]

Having mutation access is cool, and with Tzeentch it makes sense. Why not instead of having brimstones, just have pinks and blues, with flamers of Tzeentch and heralds as positionals like in khorne?
Keep the split rule, make the blues regenerating goblins, pinks get grab at S3, flamers get S3, grab leap and very long legs, heralds get S3, grab and extra arms. Add a lord of change and basically clone the feel of the khorne team. No real offensive or defensive skills, but a lot of utility and positioning skills.

 

[Mr. Ghoti]

Got back to thinking about this thread and my previous idea.

You could feasibly translate Cyanide's Khorne Daemons team for all 4 gods if you wanted to. Keeping the same structure of: greater daemon>herald>lesser daemon>cultist and swapping around skills and access would be interesting at least. It could get a little samey; kind of like how necro and undead feel with each other, but it could turn out interesting.


Khorne

Bloodthirster - Loner, Frenzy, Wild Animal, Claws, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
6519
S/GAP

Pit Fighter - frenzy
6338
GP/AS

Bloodletter - Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
6337
GAS/P

Khorne Herald -Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut
6338
GS/AP


Tzeentch

Lord of Change - Loner, Grab, Wild Animal, Mighty Blow, Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Regeneration
5519
SM/GAP

Zealot - Grab
6338
GA/SPM

Pink Horror - Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Regeneration
6337
GAM/SP

Tzeentch Herald - Extra Arms, Grab, Sure Hands
6338
GM/SAP


Nurgle

Unclean One - Loner, Disturbing Presence, Really Stupid, Mighty Blow, Nurgle's Rot, Stand Firm, Regeneration
4519
S/GAPM

Rotter - Decay, Nurgle's Rot
5338
G/SAPM

Plaguebearer - Stand Firm, Nurgle's Rot, Foul Appearance, Regeneration
5338
GSM/AP

Nurgle Herald - Stand Firm, Nurgle's Rot, Foul Appearance, Disturbing Presence
5338
GS/APM


Slaanesh

Keeper of Secrets - Loner, Sidestep, Bonehead, Claws, Very Long Legs, Shadowing, Regeneration
6518
S/GAP

Reveler - Sidestep
6338
GS/AP

Daemonette - Claws, Shadowing, Very Long Legs, Regeneration
7337
GAP/S

Slaanesh Herald - Claws, Sidestep, Very Long Legs, Shadowing
7337
GA/PS

Edit: original idea had the "pitch control frenzy replacement skill" as wrestle for snu-snu reasons, changed it to sidestep to feel more controllable and because massed wrestle (including on the big guy) might be a problem. Initially it was to counteract the mass of claw to drop the damage, but maybe sidestep is better.

 

[Supa]

On FUMBBL Secret League there's a neat Tzeentch team.

0-16 Familiars 30k 6136 Stunty, Titchy, Right Stuff, Dodge, Foul Appearance AM/GSP

0-4 Tzangors 80k 6338 Horns, Extra Arms, Big Hand GSPM/A

0-4 Tzeentch Warriors 120k 5439 Hypnotic Gaze, Extra Arms GSM/AP

0-1 The Changeling 130k **** Pro, *Changeling

*Changeling will either be a Troll, Ogre or Minotaur, before the game starts roll 1D6 on a 1 or 2 it is a Troll, on a 3-4 it will be an Ogre and on a 5-6 it will be a Minotaur. Skills and Stats will change to reflect this. Contact group admin anytime prior to playing your game and they will roll in IRC and change the Changelings stats and starter skills before the game begins.

Re-rolls 70k, yes to apotechary and Chaos star players.

EDIT: And a demon team.

0-16 Blue horror 40k 6237 Stunty, Right Stuff, Dodge, Big Hand AM/GSP

0-4 Pink Horrors 120k 6438 Extra Arms, Throw Team Mate, Regeneration GSM/AP

0-2 Flamers 70k 7348 Secret Weapon, Bombardier, No Hands, Regeneration A/GSP

0-1 Lord of Change 200k 7539 Loner, Wild Animal, Regeneration, Mighty Blow, Leap, Very Long Legs, Foul Appearance SM/GAP

70k Re-rolls, no apo, Chaos stars.

 

[Mr. Ghoti]

Thats a lot of utility skills on that daemons team. Big hand on stunties is powerful, s4 ag3 extra arms is nearly s4 AG4 in all but name, 2 AG4 bombardiers without stunty is incredible, no hands or not, and a MA7 AG3 big guy with clawpomb leap access is unstoppable.

 

[Street]

Decided to revist this after seeing this post on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodbowl/comments/eystdn/custom_roster_slaanesh_teams/

Looking at the Deamons of Tzeentch team on fumbbl, I took some ideas from that and combined it with mine, removing brimstone horrors in the process.

Not sure on if I should give the Pink horrors throw teammate or not, seems fitting but maybe a bit strong? Or the team is just weak overall but this one certainly doesn't want to be too powerful. I generally like the position pink horrors are in being very similar to the Gorillas on the Simyin lineup.

I toned down the lord of change slightly so I could bring it down to 180k cost to match up with bloodthirster. (I don't think the loss of movement or foul appearance hurts it that much)

Wonder what people think?

 

[Street]

So after some testing ingame playing against myself, the stunty build is... awful. I lost most games against myself and I think I would honestly win more playing as goblins somehow based on my overall goblin record (Though I haven't really tried playing against myself as goblins vs another race)

I have however put in ideas for changing it to a not stunty team. Be intersting to see feedback / thoughts on that. Have both stunty and not stunty versions spoilered in original post.

 

[Street]

Came back to this and thought I would redo the team with 2020 ruleset in mind.This is start of idea I had, wondering if anyone wants input.

PS, Gamesworkshop if you see this and want to make it as a team using this idea you can with 0 credit to me.

Spoiler

Stats are:
MA / ST / AG / PA / AV

Tzeentch Horrors:
Apo: Yes
Special Rules : Favoured of Tzeentch
Tier: 2
Team rerolls 60k

Blue Horror 0-12:
Cost 45k
Skill Access: Primary= G/M, Secondary= S/A/P
6/3/4+/5+/8+
Arm Bar
Extra Arms

Pink Horror 0-4:
Cost: 100K
Skill Access: Primary= M/S/A Secondary= G/P
5/4/4+/4+/9+
Arm Bar
Monstrous Mouth
Extra Arms

Tzeentch Heralds 0-2:
Cost: 90k
Skill Access: Primary= G/A/M Secondary= S/P
6/3/3+/4+/9+
Horns
Extra Arms
Regeneration

Chaos Spawn 0-1:
Cost: 140K
Skill Access: Primary= M/S Secondary= G/A/P
5/5/5+/-/10+
Bone Head (Or really stupid)
Loner
Mighty Blow
Shadowing
Regeneration

 

[tys123]

They look reasonable. Only thing is I think the blue horrors should be 40K.
6337 costs 40K ( see vamp thralls and hobgoblins ).
AG2 and extra arms is worse than AG3 so Arm Bar makes up for that.
6337 block ( or dodge ) is 50K and AG2 extra arms , arm bar is worse than that.

Pink horrors and heralds may be slightly under priced.

Is there a reason the pink horrors get S and A but not G as that looks like a really odd combination

 

[Street]

They look reasonable. Only thing is I think the blue horrors should be 40K.
6337 costs 40K ( see vamp thralls and hobgoblins ).
AG2 and extra arms is worse than AG3 so Arm Bar makes up for that.
6337 block ( or dodge ) is 50K and AG2 extra arms , arm bar is worse than that.

Pink horrors and heralds may be slightly under priced.

Is there a reason the pink horrors get S and A but not G as that looks like a really odd combination

Heralds are same stat line as Bloodletters from Khorne but with +AV and cost 10k more, swapping out juggernaut for extra arms (And slightly different skill access)

Pink horrors are slightly underpriced, increased them by 5k to 115k as I forgot 5k intervals are a thing now.

Blue horrors are same statline as Imperial Retainer Linemen, but have extra arms and arm bar, instead of Fend. I feel matching that players price of 45k is lowest I could put them.

Also fixed stats as forgot to put AG / PA / AV in 2020 format.

Edit: Forgot to say about the S and A access pink horrors but not G. It is a left over from wanting that sort of player from the simiyian team. It also isn't as painful as it was in older rules since only general skill they would normally want is block which you can go for as a secondary skill, followed by easy access to MB, guard, dodge, defensive, sidestep, standfirm etc.

 

[Supa]

This was posted on Blood Bowl community facebook page. Not bad way to come up with a new skill! This is a great concept that is using the pink horrors as str3 players (it's quite debatable if they are that or str4).

I love the magister thrower. Str2 thrower is very interesting. But it has things that make it a pleasant carrier for me: Fast (MA8!), ball handling skill (almost as good as sure hands) and one of my favorite skills in leader.

 

[Street]

View attachment 2710
This was posted on Blood Bowl community facebook page. Not bad way to come up with a new skill! This is a great concept that is using the pink horrors as str3 players (it's quite debatable if they are that or str4).

I love the magister thrower. Str2 thrower is very interesting. But it has things that make it a pleasant carrier for me: Fast (MA8!), ball handling skill (almost as good as sure hands) and one of my favorite skills in leader.

Looks cool, though I don't like Tzaangor Blizters. I wanted to avoid just having another skin varienty of beastmen like Nurgle get with Pestigors.

Also I feel like having split cause more results on cas table to be DEAD, so that it comes up more often would be fitting and nice for it.

 

[Anselan]

View attachment 2710
This was posted on Blood Bowl community facebook page. Not bad way to come up with a new skill! This is a great concept that is using the pink horrors as str3 players (it's quite debatable if they are that or str4).

I love the magister thrower. Str2 thrower is very interesting. But it has things that make it a pleasant carrier for me: Fast (MA8!), ball handling skill (almost as good as sure hands) and one of my favorite skills in leader.

Hi! I made this.

Magister

I also like the magister in this version but there was such an outcry, specially about Leader, that I felt I should change it up. I'm going to miss this iteration, but I think part of a good design is having one that people are willing to play (or play against). I don't think I could get a fan-based team adopted by the community if the overall perception of the player is that it's obviously broken (even if the playtest info I've gotten says otherwise.)

I worked with another designer to get them to what feels like a very interesting and lore appropriate place.
Almost the same stat line, passing moved to 3+.

Skills were swapped out to make him more of a magic user:
On the Ball = Telling the future, being where he needs to be
Pass = Ability to alter the future (not as good as leader, but focuses the 'magic' on what he's supposed to be doing)
Disturbing Presence = Cursing the opponents/hexing the ball

The combination makes him a good safety as well as passer. And 3+ with a free reroll is better odds than 2+ without using a reroll, so maybe it's a slight passing buff? (That's how I'm choosing to see it.)

---
Ogroid

I changed the Ogroid for a similar community complaint reason. I had him originally as loner 3+ because he's intelligent and Animal Savagery as a kindof blood sacrifice in order to use magic to launch the horrors. I've switched him to 4+ and Unchanneled fury because he's so proud. He knows exactly what you told him to do, but he chooses not to, but he's not stupid enough to lose his tackle zones.

---
Horrors

I completely understand the desire to have ST 4 Horrors, I think they probably fit somewhere around 3.5, or 3.75 lore-wise - I thought it was more fun to have them at a cheaper value, so you can field more, rather than having Chaos Warrior equivalents. (Especially considering how I wrote Split to work.)

---
Tzaangors

Looks cool, though I don't like Tzaangor Blizters. I wanted to avoid just having another skin varienty of beastmen like Nurgle get with Pestigors.

Yah, I understand everyone having a beastman variant is kinda lame. GW has leaned in super hard with Tzaangors being an important Tzeentch unit though. Giving them Agility instead of Strength access makes them feel very different though. It also allowed me to have all the positional add up to 9 for a little Tzeentchian numerology, and also gave the team a little bit of armor 8. I could see potentially dropping them, but you don't need to run them. You can do a starting line up of 6 linemen, 3 horrors, a thrower, Ogroid, and 3 rerolls with this list.

---
Split

Also I feel like having split cause more results on cas table to be DEAD, so that it comes up more often would be fitting and nice for it.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting it should do this or if you're saying it's cool that it does. (It currently turns any NI or Characteristic reduction into DEAD, 7/16 results). I said 'final result' so it allows the use of an apothecary.

 

[Street]

Split



I'm not sure if you're suggesting it should do this or if you're saying it's cool that it does. (It currently turns any NI or Characteristic reduction into DEAD, 7/16 results). I said 'final result' so it allows the use of an apothecary.

Nice to see you here! I was saying it should as I somehow missed the very first part saying about on a 10+!

One thing I forgot to say was, why is the rerolls 0-9 and not 0-8 like most teams? (Not that it matters as no one would ever try and go that high anyway)

The team is nice thematically, I just personally wanted one themed entirely around the horrors. Though I understand it is wishful thinking that they wouldn't use something like Kairic Linemen and Tzaangors.

I don't get giving access to smaller horrors only through split trait though.

 

[Anselan]

Nice to see you here! I was saying it should as I somehow missed the very first part saying about on a 10+!
One thing I forgot to say was, why is the rerolls 0-9 and not 0-8 like most teams? (Not that it matters as no one would ever try and go that high anyway)

Great minds think alike!

The rerolls are a bit of a gag. 9 is Tzeentch's number. He's the changer of ways, the architect of fate, etc. etc. So I gave them 9 rerolls as another nod to the lore. (Maybe there's some for fun league with maxed out everything on the teams where it'd be a bonus against a halfling team, or maybe going into overtime?)

The team is nice thematically, I just personally wanted one themed entirely around the horrors. Though I understand it is wishful thinking that they wouldn't use something like Kairic Linemen and Tzaangors.

Totally understand. You could drop the linemen, Magister, and Ogroid and then make all the daemon positions purchasable and 0-9. (Leave them with split as it's written.) That'd give you a starting lineup of 7 Pinks, 3 Blue, 1 Brimstone. Honestly, you'd probably have 16 players by the end of the game.

I don't get giving access to smaller horrors only through split trait though.

The idea is the team starts out as a cult (the linemen) and through sorcery they slowly gain power and as the cult is overtaken by Tzeentch's more powerful servants eventually the team becomes a howling mass of daemons. It's an attempt at a bit of narrative design built into the team itself. (It also allowed me to play into the "Just as planned!" meme that Tzeentch has. )

 

[Street]

The rerolls are a bit of a gag. 9 is Tzeentch's number. He's the changer of ways, the architect of fate, etc. etc. So I gave them 9 rerolls as another nod to the lore. (Maybe there's some for fun league with maxed out everything on the teams where it'd be a bonus against a halfling team, or maybe going into overtime?)

Ah okay, that makes sense. I wonder if Gamesworkshop will put same reference in if they do make a Tzeentch team....

Totally understand. You could drop the linemen, Magister, and Ogroid and then make all the daemon positions purchasable and 0-9. (Leave them with split as it's written.) That'd give you a starting lineup of 7 Pinks, 3 Blue, 1 Brimstone. Honestly, you'd probably have 16 players by the end of the game.

The idea is the team starts out as a cult (the linemen) and through sorcery they slowly gain power and as the cult is overtaken by Tzeentch's more powerful servants eventually the team becomes a howling mass of daemons. It's an attempt at a bit of narrative design built into the team itself. (It also allowed me to play into the "Just as planned!" meme that Tzeentch has. )

Think you got pink and blue numbers mixed up there but I get what you mean. But yeah I wouldn't be sad to see a team like that or very similar for sure.

My original idea on old ruleset had Pinks as St4 and Blues as ST2 stunties with dauntless (As some people told me blues shouldn't be ST2) so I like how yours are closer to my original idea I came up with. Even if I think arguing that they sould be ST3.5 of 3.75 is more reasons they can get away as ST4, along with the spliting strengths being halves each time then working perfectly.