Format of CCVIII

[Barmution]

I just want to clarify that I certainly do not view anybody as cheaters, scammers or as having taken unfair advantage of CTA up to this point. It is however a point of contention that seemingly needed to be aired, and until this for some reason was interpreted as personal critique I think that this thread accomplished that. There's nobody here who has said anything other than what would be their preferred system and, as far as I can tell, everyone agrees that Netsmurf has the final word (he's a democratically inclined smurf, tho).

It doesn't sit any deeper than this, so take a deep breath and relax. Personally, at this point, I'd say no to any measure that would make even a single coach quit, although a vote may ultimately force some people away if they put too much into this debate. I think that a lot has already been solved by getting issues out there and hopefully both sides have gained some perspective of the opposing view. That said, I hope that any further discussion can be kept at a more emotionally detatched level.

 

[John McGuirk]

I've found the thread really interesting to read. While I'm in the Rusty/Viajero/et al camp, I think points provided by both sides have been well-reasoned and well-argued.

Going beyond the question of outright fairness, I think it's - dare I say it - an emotive thing too.

It's a dice based game, and can be a pretty vicious one at that (mentally intensive two hour games, with slow player development, and the risk of painful permanent losses never more than a couple of rolls away). So you can never wholly account for why you win or lose a game.

You can look at the BBM stats, but they're not really context-sensitive, and for some actions (like re-rolled passes) they're outright broken anyway. You can talk about luck, and skill, and the skilful management of luck until the cows come home; at the end of the day the outcome still hinges on what the dice decide. For me, it's what makes the game exhilarating. Those 'what ifs', whether you're looking back on a game, or starting turn 8 four players down and wondering how you might break your opponent's stall.

But, some point along the line, cognitive dissonance is likely to kick in - usually when you lose, to reduce the sting of said loss. Something we all do as humans, but while protecting our own egos is all well and good, the cost comes in the resentment it can breed towards others (for their 'luck', 'cheesy play' etc).

As has been noted, this is a competition played in the best possible spirit, by coaches who trust each other and get on well - something very valuable indeed. For just this reason I'm in favour of keeping the playing field as level as possible. Simply because that way we're removing one crutch from a player's subconscious reasoning - 'some teams have an unfair advantage' - a potential source of resentment which, whether it finds expression on the boards or no, will ultimately be at the detriment of the community.

Not sure if that makes any sense I'm currently trying to help get the next Courier out the door, so it's doubtful I'm in the frame of mind for making sense

 

[Gallows Bait]

@ Lebe - Netsmurf is offering a GBP20 Impact voucher to the winner of CCVII. He did originally mention it somewhat cryptically, but it's been discussed on various threads, so i just assumed everyone in CC was aware of it. Very generous on Netsmurf's behalf, considering he also goes to a lot of effort to admin the league, contribute to the courier and organise things (and trust me, it takes a lot of time and effort). I think he deserves the voucher more than anyone!

Just to clarify, our kindly benefactor was in fact Coach, arranged through Netsmurf. In either case an extremely generous gift and one we're grateful for to both parties.

 

[Barninho]

I know I'm not in this comp and may not be in the next one but thought I'd add my opinion to the others.

I do think that the current rules favour those with more time on their hands, and this does make the competition less accessible for people who might only be able to play one game a week. The advantage is with the people who can play lots of games in CTA and get their teams up to scratch. The teams from CTA are likely to be ones with 'nice' skill rolls too, even with a TV limit, whereas the part timers amongst us don't have the luxury of auditioning teams until an exciting one turns up.

Also CTA allows you to choose your opponent and whether or not the match is ranked. The rules basically allow for farming. I'm not accusing anyone of doing this, but I could see a situation where a coach turns down tough match-ups because he's looking for easy SPP. The coaches in the Crunch Cup don't get that luxury. If you roll Amazon and you are in a group with 5 dwarf teams, good luck. Again not suggesting anyone does this, just that the possibility for exploitation exists.

I personally miss the days of us all rolling new teams and going at it, but I quite like the perennial league format too.

 

[Etheric]

I must admit I would prefer the occasional TV 1000 only cup now and then, but that is a bit off topic. And a perpetual league risks becoming a Mini OCC, and probably the OCC does perpetual league better as it is larger (but the coaches are friendlier here so difficult one).

I agree there is a potential for abuse there, but I really don't see it as a problem letting teams that have only played in CTA in. Among other things it is not that easy to get so many CTA games in to do the farming that people are worried about. Clearly if you allow auld or NO teams in then yes people could cherry pick a team which has good doubles and good stat increases, it is a lot easier to get a NO or Auld game than a CTA game.

The advantage of allowing CTA games is allows what Nikoli/Dreamy did in the previous CC which is skill up a team in CTA and then go straight to the first division. Otherwise he would have been forced to put in a rookie team. It is also very difficult to get a game at high TV in CTA, there are not many high TV teams in the league in the first place.

I agree the potential for abuse is there, but I don't think it is very likely.

I would like to see another TV1000 cup though, as I find the game a lot more balanced down there, and more fun.

 

[Valokiloren]

-shrugs- It's an issue. I still think though that people who have played experienced teams this cup should use a rookie team in CC8, but obviously without making it a TV1000 cup, you can't strictly enforce that.

What I do know is that I'm likely to stick to my current training cycle, and attempt to play the speed-running or passing game rather than the bash which I'm already alright at. That, or attempt the 2-1 grind style - something I have difficulty sticking to as it is rather dull. Although, having said that, I may go Halflings with a properly-themed and implemented squad.

 

[nufflehatesme]

as someone who is looking to enter the crunch cup in the future, this was an interesting read with valid points on both sides. i am not real fussed either way, though i do enjoy team building and creating rivalries etc that goes with perpetual leagues.

i cautiously suggest perhaps 2 cups could run simultaneously - a rookie cup and an open cup.

rookie is fresh teams, open cup is open to previous CC teams. coach's could have a team in each division if they liked too. this is pretty much what they do at bloodbowl north america (BBNA), and it seems to work for them guys.
they also have an open league much like CTA, and teams are allowed up to 4 games there in between seasons.
either way, no matter what is decided i am hopeful to play next season. the friendly coach's, the courier, POTD and mathemagics really add flavour to the league.

hell i stop in to read the courier every now and then, and i have no affiliation to the league other than reading the blogs here!

cheers

 

[Rusty]

i cautiously suggest perhaps 2 cups could run simultaneously - a rookie cup and an open cup.

rookie is fresh teams, open cup is open to previous CC teams. coach's could have a team in each division if they liked too. this is pretty much what they do at bloodbowl north america (BBNA), and it seems to work for them guys.
they also have an open league much like CTA, and teams are allowed up to 4 games there in between seasons.

It's been mentioned before, by me as well, maybe even as early as CCIV or so. The problem that keeps cropping up is numbers though - finding 32 players for the Crunch Cup hasn't been easy for the past two seasons (and last season we had multiple drop outs even then), so adding in a second competition risks diluting the field as I think quite a few coaches here don't have time for another regular competition.

 

[Altashheth]

One of the reasons I was attracted to the Crunch Cup was because the community appeared (and has so far confirmed itself) to be full of decent, upstanding gamers.

Im glad that youre having this discussion and regardless of the out come (rules wise) Id like to enter CCVIII with my mauled to death (almost) Quinns a rookie elf team that started in CCVII or a new rookie team if that is how the decision goes.

I can see the position of detaching from CTA and think that it is a positive idea

 

[Valokiloren]

I guess detaching from CTA is a definite option, but I'm not sure it's the "best" to take. Yeah, it stops us from using CTA teams in future CCs, but it does mean that CTA will be a pick up and play, with no real benefit to having a leading position in it. Don't know how I feel about that.

 

[RogueBanshee]

I would like to say that while I have stated that I personally dislike feeding CTA teams into the CC, it was never my intent for any member of the community here to interpret my opinion as an accusation of cheating. If you took my comments tht way, please accept my appologies.


That being said, I still believe allowing unlimited pay in the CTA will at some point lead to abuse.

 

[Netsmurf]

What no poll???

I once thought it would be a nice idea to have a poll on the subject, but with two very different camps and a few stragglers I just take command.

It shall be so that a 5 match maximum will be enforced for teams comming directly from the CTA to join a CC.
...........5 matches gives enough to develope a team beyond the rookie stages, but hopefully not enough exp to join division 1 directly, joining div1 is something I feel a player should earn through CC´s, if possible.

It shall be so that a CC team can have two CTA matches between seasons.
...........This gives room for a nice little revenge/grudge match, but makes sure that no one falls for any temptation to just cherry pick a fling team for 8 wins - not that I think it would ever happen

Every fourth CC starting with CCX will be with something else.
...........This is so that we do not go in the same groove all the time, and ideas will be plenty Im sure. There will never be any simultanious CC´s as long as Im admin, I would love to see CCX as either a stuntycup or a one race only cup, but thats just ideas and for this there will be a free poll - that is a quarantie, but for your own safety it is best if I and Gallows (naturaly) take controll, before free polls can be had

PS. almost forgot, for your own safety we can not allow you to log on to this forum section in groups bigger than 3 users - its for your safety remember that

 

[Viajero]

Lol. How can anyone argue with that! Smurf is the only god, erm, Admin. And Gallows his true Prophet! Smurf akbar!! Smurf akbar!!

 

[Rusty]

"And lo, the Lord did say that it should be so, and it was so. And the Lord looked on that which He had done, and He drank a crapload of whisky in celebration, and it was good."

Smurf 8:3.

 

[Narly Bird]

I think this is a fair compromise and should hopefully make both camps happy (or at least not too unhappy).

Grudge matches in between seasons is a fun idea too.

 

[Barmution]

Whaaat no poll??? And I thought this was the beginning of the Crunchian Spring?! Riot! Riot!

To be more serious: I, for one, welcome the command of our Smurf overlord(s).

 

[Valokiloren]

Smurf 8:3 is something we should have modded into the game as a billboard or banner.

But I'm disappointed... I wanted to go for a 8-game 'fling winning streak to qualify. T_T

 

[Fred Bucket]

As a CC Virgin who's maidenhead is being torn apart this season I cannot do anything else than totaly agree with our Wise Smurf

 

[Nikolai II]

[5 or 2 games]

Drats.

My CTA-bred wood elves have 8 games, my lizards and humans 7, my dark elves and norse 6, and my CC amazons have played 4 games since getting out of the CC. That's a lot of teams out of the running.

No chance for a grandfather clause if I stop playing them immediately?

 

[Netsmurf]

Hell no I need some experienced teams in the CTA to play against, with my own over the top teams