Orc Dealing with lots of Guard

[Etheric]

Hi,

I have just started playing online and having a blast. Been playing as Orcs with a combination of caging and the occasional long pass (I do like having an accurate/strong arm thrower for the diversity), on the naggaroth open league.

I guess I have built my team too much too beat agility teams, most of my spp are on my blitzers, and I only had guard on one lineman. For agi teams, or hybrid teams it seemed to work quite well, use the killer blitzers to pick off the weak players and use the numbers advantage to dominate.

Yesterday I played a chaos team with 4 block/guard warriors (2 of which had dodge as well) and 7 beastmen pretty much all with block. He did not have much tackle though for some reason, nor any subs. I found it really hard to knock his players down, so I guess he did not need them in general, and wanted to keep the TV down.

I only lost 1-0 (he got a 2nd turn touchdown after I kicked, got a blitz, the ball unfortunately then bounced into touch for a touchback - was not expecting that), then he gave it to a chaos warror on the other side of the pitch who got in pretty easily, as I moved too many players deep going after where the ball was, and moved some more across to cover the ones that went forward, leaving the opposate side weak.

I then spent the rest of the game iwth most of my players knocked down, and him getting to the ball carrier without too much trouble, he could have scored again at the very end, but took some extra blocks which failed on T15, which left him too much to do on T16 to get the ball in the end zone.

I guess the simple lesson is "don't lose the guard race" and I should get a lot of guard in my next few skills. I also got a lesson in how powerful a developed chaos team is. With the warriors having ball handling skills it is a lot easier to get them SPP than it is for example with a black orc.

I guess the two questions are
1/ If you are behind on guard is there anything you can do? Or should I just not have got in that position. I do have a killer blitzer with agi 4 as well, so possibly I could have kept the cage deep and tried a long pass.
2/ Would a team like that chaos team struggle against an agi team? What sorts of players do chaos need to handle agi teams?

 

[Murkglow]

First off, welcome to the forum.

1/ If you are behind on guard is there anything you can do? Or should I just not have got in that position.

Guard is, in my opinion, the best skill in the game hands down and in nearly any match up. Agile teams don't like facing guard (it just aggravates their already problematic strength issues) and Bashy teams fear losing the Guard race as once you're behind you're at a disadvantage. Of course it might not be your first skill (Block/Wrestle usually is) and some teams can't get it easily but I still think it's vital when you can get it.

It's possible to play around guard (especially if it's on only a few enemy units) but that tends to require playing to your strength and the Orcs strength is fighting (which is hurt by lack of guard). Basicly you're either going to need to avoid his guard players so they cannot provide assists or, if that's not possible, focus on taking out his guard players first then rolling the rest of his men when their support is gone. If you force him to spread his guard this could work out for you but if he has too much or if you can't spread him thin...

2/ Would a team like that chaos team struggle against an agi team? What sorts of players do chaos need to handle agi teams?

No I don't think he would struggle. By agi teams I believe you mean dodge heavy teams right? If so then I would say that while Tackle is helpful, it doesn't replace the need for guard on a team. He is no worse off then most chaos teams would be by virtue of his team's basic limitations and I don't think he would need any specialized unit to win.

 

[Metalsvinet]

I would gladly play an elf team against that chaos. With block/wrestle, dodge and sidestep he will have a hard time getting your players down and progress anywhere on the field.
To deal with agility team I would try to develop a killer beastman like this: block, tackle, mighty blow, piling on, frenzy

 

[Etheric]

Yeah he had 1 guy with tackle I think, something like that.

I know from playing ogres how annoying snotlings are if you don't hit them with someone with either block or tackle, even with a 3 dice block.

If anyone is really interested I can look up the team again tonight and see what was built.

To deal with agility team I would try to develop a killer beastman like this: block, tackle, mighty blow, piling on, frenzy

Yeah I have to blitzers with that sort of build :
First one : block, mightyblow, piling on, tackle, +1 agi
Second one : block, mighty blow, +1 str, tackle

Then I have two others with 1 skill each (strip ball and tackle). The one wiht tackle should have got guard for sure in hindsight. I have been dealing with a LOAD of agi teams though (and I do love playing whack a skink). I definately need more guard now though.

This was actually the FIRST chaos team I played online, it has been a lot of amazon, skaven etc before that. A killer is good against hybrid teams like Ogres, vampires and lizards too, kill off the weak players and the team colapses. I definately went too far though , but hopefully I will not get too many losses before fixing that.

 

[Coach]

Welcome to the forum!

If you have a team with strength access Guard should be a high priority for your team as it helps against every opponent. So imo you shouldn't have got in that situation in the first place and you know now why!

Tackle is probably the single most important anti agility team skill to get. It stops them dodging around you so much and makes them easier to take down.

I try to make my teams as rounded as possible to stand a fair chance against any opposition, building too far in either direction can hurt you against the other play style.

 

[danton]

I have an Orc team in Naggaroth that has played 5 matches so far (3-1-1 I think). Anyway 3 of the 4 blitzers have Guard and the other one has Tackle and Jump Up. He is being developed as my main killer (MB + Pile on eventually) while the others are all going to be used more as utility and support players.

I find that getting Guard early on 3 blitzers makes up for the fact that the Black Orcs take so long to get to 16 SPP and it gives you that much needed early Guard on the team. These blitzers can then be specialized into other roles as they level up, but giving them all Guard as their first skill keeps you in the Guard race from the start.

 

[Narly Bird]

@Danton
If you got a double as the first skill roll for 1 or 2 of your blitzers, would you consider giving them dodge rather than guard? And instead wait until the 2nd skill before giving them guard?

I wonder that perhaps giving them guard early on is so important that it outweighs the benefit of dodge in early development...

 

[Smiler6310]

@Danton
If you got a double as the first skill roll for 1 or 2 of your blitzers, would you consider giving them dodge rather than guard? And instead wait until the 2nd skill before giving them guard?

IMO I would forgo an early double roll both on Orc Blitzers and Black Orcs as it can take sometime to get them back on track with the necessary skills they require.

I normally try to skill my Orcs like so;

BOB's: Block, Guard, MB, Tackle - General Roadblocks

2 Blitzers: Guard, Tackle, MB - Early anti agility blitzers

2 Blitzers: Guard MB, Tackle - Early on Heavy hitters

As you can see all Blitzers and BOB's eventually end up with the same skill set. separating the Blitzers early covers all possiblities and means you should have a means to take on anybody at any given time. I would only deviate from these skill sets if I rolled +AG or +S on a Blitzer or +S on a BOB.

 

[Etheric]

I actually won a game against a different chaos team (but with a similar build) 1-0 yesterday. As suggested above spreading out all the guard players helped a lot, then you can knock them down individually. Before I got swamped by them and two dice against blocks vs someone who has both dodge and block is not much good. I played a bit more like wood elves, and almost made a long pass for a TD (4+ completion with a pass reroll, to an agi 4 receiver unmarked in the end zone, and I get a 3 and a 2 ). Nuffle appologiesed after that though and I got some nice dice after that to score anyway. (1 dice block on the ball carrier in a very dangerous position, defender down, fails armour, gets badly hurt, then he tries to pick the ball up next turn, fails, and it scatters nicely to a beast who was just getting lined up by another blitzer, he goes down, ball scatters to a square not covered by any of his players where my thrower scoops it up, moves upfield and makes a pass to my waiting blitzer who walks in unopposed.

I guess from the above posts people would support getting guard next on my two "star" killer blitzers

First one
Block, Mighty blow, piling on, tackle +1 agi
2nd
Block, mighty blow, + 1 str, tackle

On a double for the first one I think I would take jump up, with piling on it would help a lot, otherwise guard would be a good choice I think, and the extra mobility from the +1 agility helps. For the 2nd, with the +1 str already, he is likely to be the I would be blitzing with if possible, so I am more tempted to carry on down the "killer" build. I am willing to be persuaded.

Clearly the other two should get guard at the next opportunity. Probably over everything apart from +str or +agi.

Anyone got any feelings on Block or Guard first for black orcs? I have one with block already if that makes any difference. It is a weakness that they level so slowly. Getting block first would mean that they get both faster, but I guess I do need the guard now.

 

[Murkglow]

I guess from the above posts people would support getting guard next on my two "star" killer blitzers

First one
Block, Mighty blow, piling on, tackle +1 agi
2nd
Block, mighty blow, + 1 str, tackle

On a double for the first one I think I would take jump up, with piling on it would help a lot, otherwise guard would be a good choice I think, and the extra mobility from the +1 agility helps.

Since you're already "so far down the path" I agree Jump Up over Guard could be good. You don't need Guard on all your guys so missing out there wouldn't terrible.

For the 2nd, with the +1 str already, he is likely to be the I would be blitzing with if possible, so I am more tempted to carry on down the "killer" build. I am willing to be persuaded.

One thing to consider is that the +1 Strength helps with guard duty as well. Remember how you isolated and knocked down his guard players? Well they will try the same to you and it's harder to knock down a Str 4 player then a Str 3 player so having +str on a guard man is not only useful, it's very worthwhile. Of course if you'd still like to go with a "killer" build that's fine too (though you don't need to have it an either or kind of thing, Guard + Mighty Blow does both to an extent).

Anyone got any feelings on Block or Guard first for black orcs? I have one with block already if that makes any difference. It is a weakness that they level so slowly. Getting block first would mean that they get both faster, but I guess I do need the guard now.

I personally prioritize Block over Guard on Black Orcs. It makes them far more reliable to block with, harder to take down, and helps get them SPP faster. After that however Guard is usually my next skill.

 

[danton]

@Danton
If you got a double as the first skill roll for 1 or 2 of your blitzers, would you consider giving them dodge rather than guard? And instead wait until the 2nd skill before giving them guard?

I wonder that perhaps giving them guard early on is so important that it outweighs the benefit of dodge in early development...

I probably would take the Guard in most cases, because while Dodge can be good on blitzers Guard plays a more important role to the team and 1 or 2 Dodge players on an orc team can be easy for opposing Tacklers to deal with.