CCXII format?

[Viajero]

I know this is prolly way too early to discuss but the fact that we have past the 80 applicants mark for CCXI points out that there may be a need to rethink the Cup format going forward. 10 groups seems a heck of a lot of groups for a top 2 of each group play off .

If we can consistently maintain 60-80 teams around here, there may be a case for a Division/Tier League format with promotions and demotions no?

A promotion/demotion system can still accomodate play offs in each division (i.e. if there are 2 or 4 groups in each division) etc if we think play offs are one of the "trademarks" of CC.

What you guys think?

 

[Barmution]

Keeping the play offs are really the only thing that matters to me... promotion/demotion based on divisions rather than TV might prove trickier to admin and provide some unwanted side effects, like fresh teams going up against repeadetly demoted killers, etc.

One option is to do both: One part of the play-off teams are recruited from the division based league and the other from a more "classic" CC league. Could mean a lot more admin work, tho...

 

[Viajero]

... and provide some unwanted side effects, like fresh teams going up against repeadetly demoted killers, etc...

Fresh teams going up against killers is happening already in the current format. Plus not all hight TV teams are killers I dont really think that is a big issue tbh. Time and time again we have seen how underdogs can and will do well.

But even if it was an issue there are also ways to control any extreme side effects by aging house rules of any kind (TV based, SPP based, number of games played based, periodic re-sets, you name it).

 

[Etheric]

I for one would love to see another rookie only tournament, but maybe that is just me.

I would prefer if we did not turn into OCC2 as well, but that is always a danger when we started allowing experienced teams in.

 

[Barmution]

Fresh teams going up against killers is happening already in the current format.

You know what I mean, in the play-offs anything goes obviously, but the division stuff is different. Sorting by TV now you would be very hard pressed to find rookie teams that had to compete with teams more than 250 TV above them in their own division, let alone somebody that has been spamming MB/Claw/Guard and ignoring ball handling for 4 seasons.

 

[Viajero]

You know what I mean, in the play-offs anything goes obviously, but the division stuff is different. Sorting by TV now you would be very hard pressed to find rookie teams that had to compete with teams more than 250 TV above them in their own division, let alone somebody that has been spamming MB/Claw/Guard and ignoring ball handling for 4 seasons.

Yeah, I am not saying that that wont be the case. I guess what I am really saying is that even in those cases its not that big of a deal. In CCX you had several teams within a group who had more than 250 TV difference. After a couple games in the season you had a few more of those >250 TV difference being played out etc.

It is all a matter of degree and so far I ve seen no reason for this to be an issue. For what is worth, UKBBL has a similar format to what I mentioned above and with a similar amount of players actually (60-80 players, 3 divisions of 2 groups each, and play offs for the top division) and during the time I was there I didnt see any complaints about killer teams beating to dust fresh ones in the lower divisions. Sure, you had teams with a much higher TV difference than 250 within some groups, but it was never seen as an issue. As an example, I entered with a rookie team in a group that had several teams around 400 higher than me and ended up being promoted that season: http://bbtactics.com/forums/chosen-ones-hotline-thread-t1620/

I remember there were a couple killer teams in my group but that was about it, after all not everyone goes Chaos/Nurgle/CD, and fortunately so far in the CC there is a much higher than average ratio of agility teams. If worst come to worst we can also consider race limit quotas.

For me personally it is not a big deal. If I wanted to play all the games wihtin 250 TV then I would go back to MM after all...

 

[Citizen Nev]

Ok so let's say you have 80 teams.

Let's try and whittle that down to an expanded 32 for a nice, easy play off format.

8 Divisions of 10, sorted by TV, top 4 go through to the playoffs.

Then you have:

Round of 32
Round of 16
Quarter Finals
Semi Finals
Final

Essentially all I've done is add another round to the playoffs to acheive a greater spread of teams coming through from each division.

I should hope that is satisfactory.

 

[Netsmurf]

Ok so let's say you have 80 teams.

Let's try and whittle that down to an expanded 32 for a nice, easy play off format.

8 Divisions of 10, sorted by TV, top 4 go through to the playoffs.

Then you have:

Round of 32
Round of 16
Quater Finals
Semi Finals
Final

Essentially all I've done is add another round to the playoffs to acheive a greater spread of teams coming through from each division.

I should hope that is satisfactory.

It sure is - thank you for that

 

[John McGuirk]

Nev's right

 

[Citizen Nev]

Nev's right

You said it John...errr again.

 

[John McGuirk]

Lightning does strike twice, eh?

In all seriousness though I'd say a play-off format and a promotion/relegation one are more or less mutually exclusive. I do agree that four play-off places in a ten-team division could still be a recipe for mid-season drop-outs, however.

 

[Citizen Nev]

Midseason dropouts will happen in pretty much any league format in my experience.

Only a pure cup competition will stop this, but then you get the 'I went out in the first round so only got one game this season' scenario

 

[Viajero]

Lightning does strike twice, eh?

In all seriousness though I'd say a play-off format and a promotion/relegation one are more or less mutually exclusive. I do agree that four play-off places in a ten-team division could still be a recipe for mid-season drop-outs, however.

Not that I am against a straight Cup as we have today, by all means. I am just throwing the promotion/demotion option idea as an also fun way to have it.

But the fact is that both promotion/demotion and play offs are NOT mutually exclusive, although I understand why your instinct may tell you otherwise.

As a proof, and as mentioned, we have the UKBBL format which has both (nowadadays the play offs are only played for the 1st Division due to admin workload, but they used to have it for all Divisions). Also another league I am involved with has promotion/demotions plus play offs within each division with no conflicts and equally fun. So there may be other considerations but this in particular is not an issue I d say.

 

[John McGuirk]

Not that I am against a straight Cup as we have today, by all means. I am just throwing the promotion/demotion option idea as an also fun way to have it.

But the fact is that both promotion/demotion and play offs are NOT mutually exclusive, although I understand why your instinct may tell you otherwise.

As a proof, and as mentioned, we have the UKBBL format which has both (nowadadays the play offs are only played for the 1st Division due to admin workload, but they used to have it for all Divisions). Also another league I am involved with has promotion/demotions plus play offs within each division with no conflicts and equally fun. So there may be other considerations but this in particular is not an issue I d say.

Play-offs within divisions + promotion/relegation I sort of understand. Play-offs between divisions (as CC does) + promotion/relegation is redundant, though; if the play-offs allow you to win the competition starting from any division, I don't see what a mechanism for moving teams between them adds beyond administrative overhead and the sort of potential TV issues Barm mentioned. You can argue either way on the latter, but given the commissioner's experience with Underworld and their 'over'promotion in the OCC I suspect we have an idea which way he'd ultimately fall.

 

[Lebe666]

Too many games in each division makes the season so looonnnnggg... is it possible to make more divisions and spread it out ? TV difference initially would be smaller too.

Though I imagine a long first round helps rookies.

Rookie tournament is a bad idea... dam rookies have won the CC several times

 

[danton]

Another interesting format is the double elimination knock out. I played a big BBATTL tournament that was organized like that and it was fun (ok, so my team didn't lose a game, but it was still a good format! ).

Say you start with 64 teams. After the first round the tournament gets split into two 32 team tournaments. Teams that lose in the winners bracket at later stages get dropped down to the losers bracket and play the teams that win there. So essentially you have to lose twice to get knocked out.

 

[Viajero]

Play-offs within divisions + promotion/relegation I sort of understand.

Yes, this kind of "within a division" play offs is the one I have been referring to all along. Makes a lot of sense for those structures where you for example have 2 groups within each division like in ukbbl or similar. This way you can have the overall winner decided with play offs within the 1st Division and then, in paralel, additional "bragging Divisional rights" playoffs within each lower Division.

You can set this up relatively easily at the server. In essence each Division would be a full self contained mini CC. With final top and bottom players in each division affected by the promotion/demotion rules as applicable for the following season.

 

[Netsmurf]

The entire idea of the CC is that any team entering the CC have a shot at the title and there is only one title, making the CC look like other tournaments is a shite idea. If it ain´t broken don´t fix it

 

[Viajero]

The entire idea of the CC is that any team entering the CC have a shot at the title and there is only one title, making the CC look like other tournaments is a shite idea. If it ain´t broken don´t fix it

Well, the CC entire idea is perfect for just a few teams, i.e. 24 or 32 maybe. But 80?

There is a reasonable case to put forth where the Cup can be toooooo long. Specially if we do as CNev suggests and we have a 5 weeks play off round out of 32 teams (thats a 14-15 week CC... and that is without counting the in between season typical signup delays etc... i.e. 4+ months turnaround) . Several people above have already noticed it. And if we dont do a 32 teams play off then we have too few teams going to play offs diluting everyone chances and expectations. Its a clear case of damned if you do, damned if you dont.

So in short, and answering your comment: Yes, as much as we all like it the way it is (me included) the CC current concept may be broken for 80.

80 teams on the other hand would lend itself nicely to a structure where you have 2 groups of 8 each in Div 1, and then 4 groups of 8 each in Div 2 and a further 4 groups of 8 each aswell in Div 3. Making groups of 8 keeps the CC short and sweet. Still to be seen if the CC can sustain enough interest to consistently have 80´ish teams in the long term, but if we do...

 

[Lebe666]

The entire idea of the CC is that any team entering the CC have a shot at the title and there is only one title, making the CC look like other tournaments is a shite idea. If it ain´t broken don´t fix it

I second that... the issue is how to deal with the amount of new players