Seeding in Tier 3 of the Big Crunch

cjblackburn

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Here at the Big Crunch we care what you the coaches think so the Admin team has a question. It's been three seasons since we changed how Tier 3 (Ostland and Averland) was organised and there are some potential draw backs to the solution chosen. To fix these we could either make some changes to the new system or revert to the old system. So the question is should we stay as we are with a few modifications or should we revert to the old system? I will publish a poll in the next few days where you can vote. I have published this thread so you can have a think and put your point of view if you are so minded. Also if anyone comes up with an idea we have not thought of it could be included in the poll.

At the end of season 2 it was decided to change the seeding of Tier 3 (Ostland and Averland). It went from the original as described in the diagram below to splitting the tier by team value with the largest TV in Ostland. The idea was to provide some protection for rookie teams. With rookie teams playing mostly other rookie teams or lower value teams then less experienced coaches would not face such an up hill struggle.

rules_zpsf78b4c11.jpg


Since we did this it has become apparent that if we do not alter the system then a divide between Reikland and Nordland will form as the more developed teams will filter in to Reikland from Ostland with a preponderance of teams who take time to develop. Whilst the less developed teams will go from Averland to Nordland thus leading to Nordland having a lower average TV and probably consisting of those teams that start well.

Another issue is those occasions where a few rookie teams will have to go into Ostland with the more developed teams. Again this could well prove unfair to any inexperienced coach in this position.

The proposed changes to this system are to alternate where Ostland and Averland promote to. So next season Averland will promote to Nordland and Ostland will promote to Reikland. Then they will keep on switching round each season. This would hopefully stop any difference between Reikland and Nordland developing. Also there would be an Stunty exemption so that Halfling and Goblin teams with a TV of less than 1000 would get to chose between Ostland and Averland before any of the other teams had been placed in them. This would go some way to sorting the second problem but is certainly not a complete solution. In a normal season we would have something like 2 or 3 rookie teams in Ostland.

Some coaches have expressed a preference to return to the original system of promotion up and down the leagues with no seeding to protect rookie teams. This will obviously return us to a situation where all rookie teams could face some well developed teams early on. Whilst not a problem for experienced coaches who know how to use inducements well it could well be off putting to the less experienced coach. This might discourage diversity in the Big Crunch as all new teams will have tough match ups early in their career so coaches are even more likely to chose high armour teams to prevent massive losses before the team has the money to replace them.

Neither system is perfect and both have drawbacks as indicated above. We appreciate your feedback and would be grateful if any discussions be carried out in a calm manner.
 
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PaloLV

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I like the alternating promotion to Reikland and Nordland suggestion.
 

Werebat

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First, I think you meant to type "Halfling and Goblin teams with a TV of less than 1000" instead of "less than 100".

Second, I'm actually in favor of going back to the old way, where all new teams get a little bit of experienced opposition, instead of most getting to play against other rookies but a few lucky ducks getting sent to the meat grinder in Ostland.

Teams that are slow to develop will just have to suck it up and deal -- no offense. If I could survive a season in Nordland with a fairly green Underworld team, anyone can do it.

Edit: If we DO leave things as they are, I think new coaches should be allowed to change their team on hearing that they got placed in Ostland with developed teams. I mean they'd be kind of weenie if they changed, but they should have the OPTION...
 

Valokiloren

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I personally like the proposal of alternating promotion areas, and the Stunty rule sounds fun, though I'm assuming it applies to teams who actually are TV 1000 or lower, as opposed to teams which are merely under the baseline of TV 1000 due to injuries. Such as a Goblin team with a MNG Troll taking them under TV 1000 for MD1, for example. Or alternatively, a Underworld team with two or more MNG Skaven on MD1, among other missing players.

On allowing coaches to be weenies: I'm personally against this, but I can understand that for some, the division they start in could influence what sort of team they choose to play. Doesn't make them any less of a weenie though. :D
 

St Cloud

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As i think dividing the experienced teams & the rookies up is a fairer deal all around i am definitely in the camp for going back to the old system.

One idea maybe: To have a fairer distribution of the experienced teams they could be seeded according to their TV (potential TV?) into the Tier 3 divisions. Thus avoiding the problem of many dropouts / rerolls in one of the tiers.

Maybe Nik as the first TV 2500 team in Tier3 next season should have his say here as well... :p
 
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Borke

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I think that trying to even approach "fair" in a non-random seeding in tier 3 is a futile attempt. If you set strict numbers (such as the TV1000 rule), you open the system to abuse, if you make the seeding of certain teams a matter of management decision, you open yourself to accusations of favouritism. And besides: Why only Halflings and Goblins, why not include other teams, for various reasons? There are plenty of examples of teams that thrive within one environment, and struggle within another.

So I am in favour of going back to the old system. Let there be randomness, let there be Nuffle! And let new coaches in Big Crunch not be put in a protective bubble (because that never kept anyone from quitting, I think), but let them experience Blood Bowl in all it's glory, including Morg 'n' Thorg!
 

NieA7

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What Borke said: I'm a new coach in BC and while it's nice only having to deal with rookie teams it's by no means the full BB experience. If folk want TV matching they can get it in Auld and Nag, it's only in private leagues that you get the chance to play about with stars and such so why try and restrict it?
 

Axler

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Speaking as one of the guys that got put into Ostland with a Tv1000 Delf team I'd much rather it be random. I had thought that it was just random chance that stuck me in with the more developed teams now I find it was deliberate well you can imagine I'm not pleased. Especially after some of the kickings I've received so far (Werebat I'm looking at you! :p).

Running a new team (especially the squishy ones!) in a longer format league you are essentially stuck with just trying to survive your first 5 or 6 games as you don't have the rerolls or skills to protect your players or the funds to replace them if needed. I do remember reading somewhere about letting new teams play 5 or 6 games before joining the league. This plus random seeding would be my preferred option.
 

cjblackburn

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Speaking as one of the guys that got put into Ostland with a Tv1000 Delf team I'd much rather it be random. I had thought that it was just random chance that stuck me in with the more developed teams now I find it was deliberate well you can imagine I'm not pleased. Especially after some of the kickings I've received so far (Werebat I'm looking at you! :p).

Just to clarify it was random all rookie teams were given a random number and the first three went it to Ostland.
 

Nikolai II

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Maybe Nik as the first TV 2500 team in Tier3 next season should have his say here as well... :p

Only if I get a Minotaur. I'm more on 2000 now, mostly because I have to keep my TV low or get even more run over by the fast developing teams and their wizards.

(Not that I have fared better against my equals or even those giving me wizards ..)
 

cjblackburn

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(Not that I have fared better against my equals or even those giving me wizards ..)

You are paying the price for what you did to Chaps!

Not a day goes by without a solitary tear for the memory of that beautiful Yhetee.
 

Axler

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Just to clarify it was random all rookie teams were given a random number and the first three went it to Ostland.

Sorry I didn't mean I was put in there deliberately but rather that the higher TV guys were all put in the same place on purpose.
 

PimpWizard

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I think having the rookies together was a great idea. Starting a new team in division 3 and immediately facing teams 500TV higher is no fun...in most cases you've lost the game before you even start and the best you can hope for is that none of your players get killed. That's not a good way to retain people new to Bloodbowl / BBtactics.

Playing higher TV teams is indeed part of Bloodbowl but a brand new team with no levelups really doesn't have the tools to deal with a team that's been demoted from tier 2 (so would have played at least two full seasons).
 
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