Skaven Good Skaven players

[TravelScrabble]

TV isn't a big concern as even pretty advanced Skaven squads plummet to low TV quite suddenly. As you say it comes down to the skills on the team but I'm interested in all levels of development.

 

[Juriel]

I'm sad that my plays are always invalid as teaching tools because of silly stat boosts.

 

[TravelScrabble]

Well that's true of blackmist too, and those SSC games trace the evolution of your squat from TV 1000. By the way Juriel Lebe mentioned that you kept a skaven team blog on the OCC forums but I'm having trouble tracking it down. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Juriel]

Turns out totally new users cannot see the OCC sub-forums, I'm asking about it.

 

[Boffa]

Skaven are turning out to be a real issue for me.. doesn't help that my team is injury prone, perhaps at time I am a bit to aggressive on def and I've played mainly bashy teams so far but it's been a hard slog. Crazy thing is I've managed to not lose yet (one was a dc where at best I draw) but I find from the kick off that things go down hill fast. Can someone show me a useful set up when kicking with a full Skaven squad. Once those linerats are down and surrounded, it's pretty hard for me to do anything about it.. maybe if they dropped slower it'd be a bit easier, but I'm finding it nearly impossible to get them out of trouble.... so what's a good set up for 4 gutters 2 sv a thrower and 4 line rats that doesn't end up with all the ag3 marked/dead/surrounded on turn 1?

 

[claaaams]

OK, I've never tried to draw one of these before, but something like this isn't terrible, in that it achieves the main goal of not getting a gutter runner blitzed on turn 1, which is nice, and also prevents getting surrounded. Of course, against a dashier team, it protects the sidelines but unfortunately means that if they knock down the guys on the lines they can saunter up the middle. But it's kind of my default.

Also, if they have any Frenzy, you can't use this or you get surfed right away. If they do, you have to either concede the sidelines or allow a gutter to get blitzed.



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. s . . l . . . t . . s .
. g . . g . . . g . . g .



Edit: And no, this doesn't keep all your ag 3 guys from getting marked on turn 1, but usually you can hit 'em back a few times if they do this and make them think twice about doing that again. Not to mention that if they choose to lock down 3-4 guys just marking your stormvermin and thrower and stuff, that's 3 or 4 (presumably big strong) guys who can't help protect the ball against your gutter runners, so they're sort of playing into your hands doing that. Remember, with Skaven, it's all about the ball. You can't outmuscle anybody, but the trade off for that is that anything less than a double super cage with all 11 bashers is vulnerable to your amazing speed and pluck. =)

And if all else fails, you can pretend you're elves for a turn and dodge everybody away and build columns, but obviously that's not great. =)

 

[Boffa]

Yeah spreads them up nicely and even without frenzy they can Sandwich you onto sidelines a bit.. also wouldn't mind some set ups when down in numbers (every drive for me so far) that's where it gets really confusing how to set up, so with 4 gutters 3 linos and a SV, what do you do then? I've been doing a 3-3-5 set up most of the time and it protects the gutters but the ag3 guys get surrounded and overwhelmed quite easily.

 

[Barmution]

If you're getting all your ag3 tied up, then your opponent is playing right into your hands, ie. his guys are actually tied down while your GRs are free to bounce around, lending assists to get your SVs 2Ds or blitzing the carrier or your other type of GR shenanigans.

Having only 11 players really sucks for Skaven, though, as you'll be bleeding manpower more often than not. Claaams' setup is fairly decent, but against frenzy I'd go for ye olde ziggurat. Get a kicker as soon as possible, as this will make you able to force a bashier side to use time to get the ball in a cage, giving you local number superiority or even let you get a shot at it early if you choose to kick short.

 

[Juriel]

If you use the standard formation in claaaaaams's post, it means one of the front AG3 people at the edges gets blitzed and sandwiched between a ST4 player and the edge of the pitch. While the other three in the front get marked.

What I've tended to use is...


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. . . . g . g . g . . . .
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. . . . . . t . . . . . .


Which should keep at least the Thrower free, while Gutter Runners behind the Stormvermin can dodge away/assist against whoever blitzed a Stormvermin. Yes, the opponent is free to go down either side, but when is this a problem? If they score fast, you get the ball. If they don't, you get to move your power towards either side you want.

 

[Juriel]

And turns out new OCC accounts only get to see the sub-sections after they're actually coaches (in OCC or SSC).

Should I copy-paste my match reports onto this forum? Hmm.

EDIT: What else would I do at work? http://bbtactics.com/forums/stalkers-skaven-shenanigans-match-reports-ahoy-t2520/

 

[Boffa]

That's pretty close to what I've been using Juriel, except for the thrower at the back. Interesting I'll give that a go. Generally got swarmed, bashed and stomped with the 3-3-5 sort of formations. Getting a kicker would require a linerat to live long enough.. not confident on that.. maybe I need to start a new rat team and try to actually get a bench?

 

[danton]

Yeah, I prefer a central set-up similar to Juriel's against Bash teams. Also if the opponent knocks over all of your line rats and surrounds them on turn 1 then it's sometimes better to just leave them lying down for a turn or two, rather than just standing them up to get hit again, or trying to dodge away and potentially injuring them. If he's marking a downed line rat with a better piece then that's a good trade in many situations. Just stand them up when you need to lock those marking pieces down (ie if you go "all in" for the ball).

In terms of the kicker I actually like building a defensive thrower with Block and Kick. This means all of your line rats can be treated as fodder and you also have a back-up thrower if you need it.

 

[TravelScrabble]

Thanks for posting the match reports Juriel, I'll add some more links and make a general resource post in a bit.

 

[claaaams]

Yeah, Juriel's is the one I see other (excellent) Skaven coaches using, but I agree with Boffa's issue regarding that one - it gets surrounded too easily, which takes away your blitzing options - you usually have to blitz your way out of their encircling formation, instead of being able to blitz somebody a little more ball-wards.

Of course, we're generalizing a LOT here. It depends on where the kick goes, exactly what team you're playing against, etc. My prejudice is a sideline-guarding, no gutter-runner-blitzing one, but I can see the argument for a clustered "take the sides if you want them" argument too.

And when I get short-handed, I do indeed start conceding the sidelines in order to protect the gutter runners.

 

[Coach]

I've not played Skaven for a few years but I used to put them forward, they can only blitz one and he can use Side Step to get even nearer.

The other three are then nearer the ball when it's my turn. I did tend to use them in a never say die manner throughout the whole match.

 

[Juriel]

Of course it's important to get the early pressure on, before they cage stuff up. But that depends on so many things.

Rat Ogre's Frenzy can actually open up paths, even if he's still risky and bloated.

 

[EastCoast]

I do, tried but failed to find Krampus in Stum Van Stahl

Hey Travel, on bbmanager we usually are under [SVS] or Sturm Von Stahl. His team was called the Ratti Norvegici. The guy took home 5 titles in 12 seasons with his rats.

If I had to describe his playstyle in one word, it would be perseverance. I've never seen any coach before or since who always looked like he was getting the crap kicked out of him for 14 turns and then... bam those gutter runners had the ball and it was over.

http://www.rmbbl.net/svsforum/replays.php Any of his replays after season 6 should be watchable with LE or CE. It might take a couple of tries to load the page.

 

[Ugnash]

Hey folks - only just signed on here to find that I've already been named and shamed on here lol.

I've played skaven consistently through every edition from the very first and I have to admit that whilst I've played every race in that time the rats are by far my favourite.

The Brood are my team over in the UKBBL. They've played 10 seasons there and have never featured throwers - NEVER. I'm not a big fan of them as a positional when you have faster, more agile players available; hence Nikkit Skritt is my gutter thrower and has just played his 105th match earlier tonight: not bad for a Str 2 / Av 6 player lol. Eight straight seasons in the Premiership have of course taken their toll but by managing to retain players whose injuries don't impair their primary role I've managed to selectively replace and yet still build up my treasury to just over a million gps. It does however mean that at their 'worst' I had a team with 12 stat breaks.

I know a lot of people believe that linerats are only present to act as temporary roadblocks but probably the key to The Brood's longevity (they are by far the longest surviving skaven team in the UKBBL) is their developed linerat pack. For the past five seasons I've played without a rat ogre and sometimes only one stormvermin (this latter area has been a bit of a disaster I have to say) but the linerats have been more than able to take up the slack with the block / wrestle + fend combo proving to be most effective.

For gutter runners I'm not a big fan of the leaping cage breaker. Grunners are to be protected IMO as they are your real game changers. My current make-up of grunners is:
1. Gutter thrower lvl 6: blodge / ko return / sure hands / pass / pass block (I always like to feature this skill at least once in each of my teams if possible)
2. Superstar grunner lvl 7: blodge / Ag5 but Str 1! / leap / side step / two heads / fend (This is the guy who tends to do the impossible on a regular basis)
3. Juan Turner grunner lvl 7: blodge / Mv 10 / sprint / side step / two heads / sure feet (He pretty much does what it says on the can and is currently the highest scoring player in the UKBBL).
4. Utility grunner: this guy is a bit of a catch-all to fill in if one of the others is missing but as a result tends to take more punishment. I've lost more utility grunners than the others and currently have another rookie in this position.

The big mistake I've seen in the UKBBL is coaches using the same generic build for all grunners - this makes them too predictable.

So there you have it, just some random thoughts on skaven play. I've been asked to post some replays on BBM so will try to get around to that.

 

[Juriel]

Having a Thrower along frees up that 4th Gutter Runner for duties other than hiding in the backfield. Especially if you end up taking passing skills on that Gutter Runner anyway...

Of course, I speak from the priviledged position of having an AG4 Thrower. It's a lot different, being able to have him pick the ball up reliably.

 

[TravelScrabble]

Hey Travel, on bbmanager we usually are under [SVS] or Sturm Von Stahl. His team was called the Ratti Norvegici. The guy took home 5 titles in 12 seasons with his rats.

If I had to describe his playstyle in one word, it would be perseverance. I've never seen any coach before or since who always looked like he was getting the crap kicked out of him for 14 turns and then... bam those gutter runners had the ball and it was over.

http://www.rmbbl.net/svsforum/replays.php Any of his replays after season 6 should be watchable with LE or CE. It might take a couple of tries to load the page.

Thanks for the info that's awesome. I never managed to get the link to work but I got onto the site here http://www.rmbbl.net/svsforum/index.php and from there was able to access the replays to with a bit of perseverance it works. I'm adding it to the OP.