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Lizardman 2x Skinks or 1x Kroxigor

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Nabolo/Orstang, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Hi guys !

    Im currently having good results with my lizardmen but I recently played a couple of dwarves team who have decimated some of my best player !
    Among them ? My Kroxigor with guard & break tackle, and av8 which convinced me to fire him.

    As a matter of fact my TV dropped and Im much happier with the result !

    I started realising that :
    - many games difficulties were coming from the unreliability of the Kroxigor (fail roll, fear to fail)
    - most of the time, his 140k are stuck by a 50k of value lineman who ties him up
    - 5 skinks are an efficient (andquite reliable) mobile squad for support and blitzing
    - having more skinks allows more efficient fouling (as they can easily gather and it doesnt matter so much if one gets banned)

    Taking out a player with a Kroxigor is risky (you might lose 140k of TV for a turn if he goes bone head, or even cause a turnover) while fouling risks 60k of TV is more efficient...

    That's it ! I wanted to know what you thought of that brand new theory... I don't think I've ever managed to play my Kroxigor correctly as I've used to block more than I should ever have but Im surprised not to miss him at all now he is gone ! =)

    What do you say ?
    And have a good day !!
     
  2. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, most people would say that with lizards you want to overwhelm with strength and you lose 3 strength this way, but if its working for you that's cool and I can see why its an idea that has merits.
     
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  3. comfort_eagle

    comfort_eagle Active Member

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    What tv are you at?

    For pitch control, a rookie krox seems about as useful as 2 naked skinks (and sturdier albeit less mobile). If you already have a decent bench, the krox let's you put more tv on the pitch in any given drive. Even better if you can position the big guy to soak up some damage and tie up a couple of players at a time; gives your skinks more space to run the field.

    The exception might be if you're expecting clawpomb spam, in which case replacement skinks might be a cheaper way to build utility.
     
  4. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I think it is a bad idea.
    It is easier for the opponent to tie up 6 high strength players than 7 and the more high ST you have on the pitch the easier it is for them to work together to free one of them up.
    For example if you have 2 Saurus stood next to each other and 2 orc linemen stood infront of them then neither Saurus is moving. However if it is 3 in a line you can block 2 of them diagonally and the 3rd can reposition.
    Also it is easier to protect 4 ( or 3 with slibli ) skinks than it is 5 so you are going to be down on players more often.
     
  5. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Regarding Mobility the Krox has never been of much help in my case.

    I don’t have much guard in the team because I consider the Saurus are already strong enough, so I went a bashier way with mb and I privileged break tackle for mobility, which puts my opponent before the following choice: marking my player at risk (mb) but for nothing (bt).

    If the krox had block I would hold a different speech, but he doesn’t so anyone with block is willing to push him away, even against two dices, forcing me to move him back in and causing some bone head.

    I’ve to mention I tend to be extremely unlucky with dices (or very lucky if the 1 were worth 6) and I get frequently bone-head.

    So in the end, what I need to win is get the advantage of players on the pitch, and in that matter, as I was saying, the Krox (140k) tends to negate one player worth 50k while a fouling skink can help send of a player worth 150k.

    Of course if I was sure it’s a good theory I wouldn’t have opened that thread...

    Oh and I need to mention something important : I have a 5 sur Saurus in the team ! Which probably helps counterbalancing the absence of a kroxigor...

    And the absence of the Krox can also help recruiting sibli.
     
  6. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Let me add the following. If you’re facing a lizardteam and you want to bash them away you either need to mobilize players of your own or you need to have stronger players.

    If you’re a lizard coach, being aware of this, you have not much option to adapt your playstyle because it is so hard to skill up the Saurus: you must outspeed the bashy team and bash the others... or even bash them all.

    The krox doesn’t help at bashing because he has no block and bone head.

    Two fouling skinks help because they can gang foul.

    Again tell me if this doesn’t make sense, thank you ! :)
     
  7. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    I think that if you frequently find your Krox to not be very useful, there are two possible causes: a) Kroxes are not very useful, and your Krox is a typical example, or b) you're not playing your Krox right. I am phrasing this provocatively, and I'm not a very good Lizardman coach, so I actually can't even tell you from my own experience whether deliberately playing without a Krox is a good idea. I just wanted to point out that your initial argument has more than one possible explanation.

    You might well be right with your theory, of course, but you need to play a lot of games without a Krox to be sure. For now I wish you good luck :D
     
  8. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    Your opponent will try to tie up the Krox with a lineman. It's your job to get him in a position to tie up two or three players so your Saurus's can be more mobile. With that said if you're enjoying playing without him then there's nothing wrong with that!
     
  9. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    You two are most probably right, I probably don’t use my krox in the best possible way... but I’d be happy to get someone who knows how to tell us about it, because I can’t tell right now what added value it really brings anymore.
    Ive read the Plasmoid and saw the picture of how a krox is supposed to efficiently block three players with the help of a Saurus but the exact same situation described will rarely happen and without block it’s stoll worth to try a risky block on the krox etc. So much costly efforts and tv value to so much uncertain benefits
     
  10. LloydsGamble

    LloydsGamble Active Member

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    I haven't played a lot of Lizards, but I can say from playing against them I fancy my chances of winning far more if they don't have a Krox.

    But if your play style is working well without one, go for it!
     
  11. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Thanks for your testimony !
    So please now, tell me I was right to fire a guard+break tackle but 8av Kroxigor Before I regret building up silly theories XD
     
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  12. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    I would have fired him. The guard is nice, and BT is even nice. But to succeed on a BT you need to pass the bonehead roll and then pass the dodge roll. That's an 11/36 failure rate on a player with loner (before any kind of block or other action). It can be important to be able to move him, but it's not something I would want to try unless its a desperation play. And he has a long way to get another skill.

    So even if he wasn't AV8 if you had the cash I wouldn't be against firing and re-buying a rookie Krox. That gives you two quicker chances for a double and block.

    The key to using a big guy with bonehead is understanding when its worth the risk to activate him. A STR5 player with prehensile tail in the middle of the pitch can be very useful even if you don't block with or move him. When you do need to move him I try to do it early in the turn so that if he fails I have a chance to mitigate the damage. Unless I plan to block with him, then I try to do it at the end of the turn. And then you have to get lucky :)
     
  13. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I would also have fired him if I had enough cash to rebuy and agree with Jav that BT can be great but I would have taken Stand Firm.
     
  14. DireSickFish

    DireSickFish Active Member

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    Rookie Krox are basically the best big guy in the game. Prehensile tail is actually a very big deal vs elf teams, especially because they won't have enough Guard to reliably punch him back. Skinks are also very good players, so you might just be better at the agility side of things than the bashy side. But I'd still want a Krox on every lizardman team. You should eventually get Guard on some of the Saurus. Because while you can usually 2d with Saurus, especially with skinsk to assist. Other teams with ST access wills tart Guard spamming to be able to hit back.

    The Krox's job is to be able to tie up multiple opponent players so that they can't just man mark your Saurus to slow the entire game down. I often beat Lizards by getting my team decimated by man marking Sarus and Krox that are out of position and leaving them behind the play. It's a big reason why BT is often touted for Saurus. The good Lizard coaches I play will put their Krox into traffic on purpose so that they are basing 3 or 4 of my elf players. That way I eithe rhave to commit to many players to the block, or have to risk 3+ dodges out on a lot of players -and- give up field position to do so.

    Edit: and yes -AV is a good reason to fir ehim. His job is to be a reliable roadblock. Can't do that if you get KO'd or injured that easy.
     
  15. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Thanks again for your testimonies !
    But again, in practice (at least mine) you don’t get a krox out of the box if you wanna win games right from the beginning (better get re rolls), and it isn’t hard to isolate a krox, it might mobilise a player or two for one turn, but once the krox is down, you can tie him up with one player forever (That’s the reason I had chosen break tackle).

    Or am I missing something ? How do you avoid that ?
    Because that also negates the 140k of the krox and gives the tv advantage to your opponent.
     
  16. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Its risky for your opponent to be constantly marking the krox because its a free mb hit and that will result in a removal sooner or later for most teams. (although av 9 is pretty durable). If you really need to move the krox you blitz him free, or as you say there's break tackle, but on the whole if the krox is getting free hits that's fine, as long as you haven't moved him too far away from the center of the pitch he's still acting as something of a road block and should be able to rejoin the play once he's dealt with his marker.
     
  17. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Maybe I've been too unlucky... but blocking with the krox too often results on a bone head or a non-hit or casuality result in my experience to justify his 140K.
    I have a saurus worth that price now, and he is useful every single turn, not to say lethal... he justifies its 140k fully.
     
  18. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Well bh is 1/6 so that'll happen 2-3 turns per game on average depending on how often you activate your krox, blocking turnovers happen 1/9 times so 0-1 times a game unless you're giving him 3d chance of an armour break against a non block marker is ca. 1/3 against av 7 and ca. 2/9 against av 8 so odds are in your favor to get the krox free and your opponent stunned rather than the other way round. Yes your 140 tv will go missing roughly 3 turns of the game and it will cause the occasional turnover, but it will also swing scrums, block scoring lanes and crucially give your opponent less chances to hit fragile skinks.
     
  19. Znarx

    Znarx Courier Staff

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    I'm going to chime in on the side of you want the Kroxigor. Against bashy teams, he gives you much much needed additional strength. Against agility teams, the Prehensile Tail is a big boost. Thick Skull gives him an even better chance to stay on the field than your Sauruses.

    Looking at total team strength, without the Kroxigor, you have 34 total team strength. With the Kroxigor, you have 37. Bashy teams like Orcs, Nurgle and Chaos can have team strength of 37 without a Big Guy, and 39 if they use a Big Guy. Even Undead teams will have team strength of 37. You need that extra strength against these teams.

    In my opinion, the Kroxigor is the best overall Big Guy. With MV 6, he is tied for the being the fastest normal player with ST 5 or more (not counting Star Players). He has equal movement to your Sauruses, so he can keep up with your cage. Most other teams with Big Guys don't have this. Being Bone Headed and not Wild Animal, there's no reason to prefer Blitzing with him, which is good because in general your Sauruses are going to be better at doing Blitzes since they don't have Loner, and can have good Blitzing skills like Block and Tackle. The key to the Kroxigor is knowing when not to take an action with him. It can often be better to leave him tying up opposing players, rather than risking a Bone Headed failure or risking a 1/9 block failure. On offense, I like putting the Kroxigor in the middle of the LOS and using him last in the turn, even after attempting to pick up the ball. If the pickup fails, then he's still standing and tying up the last opponent player on the LOS. If he gets a chance to block, he'll probably get a 3d block, and if he goes Bone Headed or fails the block, the opposing player is still probably tied up by the two Sauruses on the LOS.

    I think the two most important skills on a Kroxigor are Guard and Stand Firm. I would take those as the first two skills on a Kroxigor (in some order, depending on the rest of the team), unless you get doubles for Block. Stand Firm makes opponent -2d blocks less likely to be beneficial, and can really punish opponents that bring in a bunch of assists to get a 2d block on the Krox and then roll :pushback::pushback:. I wouldn't take Break Tackle on a Krox until probably the fourth or fifth skill (after Guard, Stand Firm, and Grab), and only use it in either extremely critical situations, or situations where it really doesn't matter if he fails it. I'm not a fan of rerolling the Kroxigor after two levelups if he doesn't get Block. They take a long time to develop, and a SF Guard Krox is awesome.

    Unless you're facing absolutely no bash teams, you really want to have 2-3 Guard pieces on your team, and the Krox is a great piece to take Guard with his high strength and Prehensile Tail. As mentioned above, the other bash teams are going to have equal or greater total team strength, and they're likely to have 4 or more Guard pieces. Without at least a few Guard Sauruses of your own, those opponents are going to be able to mark all of your players without leaving you any 2d block opportunities.
     
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  20. Nabolo/Orstang

    Nabolo/Orstang Member

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    Im not convinced by your way to calculte total strength in the absolute... I don't think it matters much on the field and a mobile weak strength can do better than a non-mobile one in my experience.

    Getting back to the Kroxigor vs 2x Skinks, I need to say the second choice looks better in my personal situation, haveing a ST5 Saurus and playing at 1500 TV.
    Buying a new Kroxigor now would take time to xp and would have me facing higher better skilled teams.
    A Kroxigor can negate let's say 1 or two players, so to in my best scenario, my rookie krox negates 2x50k of the opposing team.
    A fouling skink can negate a 140 player !
    Yes, my team will have a harder time against bashy teams but it can use its speed and break tackle in this case.
    Against agile/fast team I need lots of reliability and positioning, which the krow doesn't offer, and skilled players can easily counter him so in the end, as a rookie krox, he can only negate players who arent worth his own value.

    Is it a bit convincing ?
    Thx to all !! ^^