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Cyanide A Khorne Daemons Guide

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Shatner, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    The Roster
    Pit Fighters (0-16) 60k 6/3/3/8 GP/AS
    Frenzy
    Bloodletter Daemons (0-4) 80k 6/3/3/7 GAS/P
    Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
    Khorne Heralds (0-2) 90k 6/3/3/8 GS/AP
    Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut
    Bloodthirster (0-1) 180k 6/5/1/9 S/GAP
    Frenzy, Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration

    Re-rolls are 70k each.


    Preface: An Examination of Frenzy

    Before we talk about Khorne Daemons, let's talk about the Frenzy skill because the former is all about the latter. When blocking, Frenzy forces you to advance on your opponent and, if possible, block a second time. This accomplishes two things:
    1) It allows you to move your target one square further across the pitch than a normal block would
    2) It forces you to block a second time if the first time was a push
    While that first point is important, let's talk about it later and instead look at #2. Iterative probability tells us that doing the same thing multiple times in a row makes the odds more extreme: if the odds are that you'll likely fail, blocking twice in a row means you are VERY likely to fail, and if the odds are that you'll likely succeed, blocking twice means you are VERY likely to succeed. When you think of Frenzy as a probability amplifier, it should become much clearer when throwing a block is a good idea and when it's an act of desperation. For the purposes of this guide, we'll consider a 2-die block with the block skill/2-die blitz with the juggernaut skill as being a safe one to make, and anything worse as being a gamble.

    Having the potential to move your target twice as far with each block opens up a lot of useful possibilities. Chain blocks (having one block push a target into position to receive another block) can stretch across the pitch, with a sideline push from six or more squares away being possible. Chain blocks also allow more of your players to block without having to spend your precious blitz action. Isolating crucial targets (e.g. moving a guard away from his allies or pushing a big guy away from the action and leaving him marked up with a lineman) becomes easier. Also, you'll have an easier time tearing open enemy formations: pushing a target two spaces can open a defensive line wide enough for your players to move through without having to make dodge rolls. However, all of this requires careful planning and forethought. As the Khorne Daemons, you'll have a minimum of 7 players with frenzy on the pitch - having stolen Norse's title of "Frenziest of them all" - so you can't throw blocks willy-nilly like dwarf or orc teams do. Ironically, the team of mindless fury and endless rage requires chess-like forethought to function well. And if you aren't interested in thinking 3 moves ahead or don't want to fuss with all this frenzy nonsense, play some other team because Khorne Daemons aren't for you.


    Khorne Daemons, An Overview or: What an Amazon and Chaos Smoothie Tastes Like

    Looking at the stats we see, much to the surprise of many, that Khorne Daemons (KD for short) isn't a particularly high-strength team (minimum of 10 ST3 players on the pitch), but it is surprisingly fast and maneuverable for a bashy team (universal MV6, minimum of 10 AG3 players on the pitch). Ignoring the big guy, stat-wise this team is most similar to a heavily armored amazon team. Also like the Amazons, you are a team that wants to hit stuff but needs assists to improve your reliability, lacking both high strength and the ubiquitous block of the Norse or Dwarf teams. Similar to Chaos, this team boasts a very impressive blitz, since 7 of it's players blitz with an effective strength of 4 or more and, unlike Chaos, these blitzers all have the benefit of the juggernaut skill, making those blitzes even more reliable and better at moving their target around the pitch. And like Chaos, you're looking at a bunch of AG3 players with no ball handling skills and expensive re-rolls. While the Pit Fighters do have access to the Pass skills, you generally won't see much passing from this team, and every time the ball gets picked up or changes hands you should always try to have re-roll at the ready.

    Question: What does KD do? Answer: Bashes. Question: How, exactly? Answer: Often, yet strategically. It is theoretically possible for KD to have 11 frenzy players on the pitch, each making two 2D blocks against an opponent, for a maximum of 44 block dice rolled in a single round. And remember, a safe 2D frenzy-block has only a 3% chance of causing a turnover, so you can make all 11 of those frenzy-blocks without needing to use a re-roll 71% of the time. That's gonna result in a lot of opposing players hitting the astrogranite. Now, that's the theoretical ideal, but with a little team development, planning, and luck you'll be throwing more blocks in one turn than your opponent is likely to throw in two. Since KD lacks Chaos' universal access to strength and mutation skills, these blocks won't be done by elite CLPOMB murderers, but if you knock over enough opponents you'll cause your share of armor breaks, if not outright injuries. KD hits often, though not necessarily hard.

    Unlike Chaos, KD doesn't cage exceptionally well. ST3 corners, with or without an abundance of guard, means you are likely to have a corner blitzed open, and widespread frenzy will make pushing the invaders out and re-forming the cage risky. Instead, plan on trying to screen the enemy away from your ball carrier, and using blitzes and/or AG3 dodges to escape further down the pitch. Like most of KD's strategies, anticipate your offensive involving a fair amount of planning unless you've managed to get a numerical advantage on the pitch. If you do outnumber your opponents, break out the sunscreen because you're going to the beach and their team gets to be the beach ball.


    Divide, Conquer, and Rule the Sidelines

    KD is bashier than most agile teams; this is pretty self-evident. KD is more maneuverable than most bashy teams: this is because you have a good chance of being able to use juggernaut+horns to force an opening or remove a marking player, have universal MV6, and have 10+ AG3 players. So what you want to do against your opponents is isolate the opposing team into groups weak enough for you to beat up, and then send them crashing to the ground with a torrent of frenzy-blocks. Push clumsy opponents (like dwarf blockers w/guard or any big guy w/o Break Tackle) away from their allies, and then allow them no other action than to simply stand up to receive more abuse, or risk dodging away. Try and dominate the middle of the pitch while leaving the sidelines invitingly open to force the opposing team towards the sidelines, and once they're there, close in and push them off the field. It doesn't matter what a player's strength is or what skills they possess; once they go over the sidelines they are out for rest of the drive, if not the rest of the match. Most other teams have one or two positionals that can surf players off the pitch, but KD has at least 7 of them, so don't worry so much about your crowd surfers getting surfed themselves; unless their guy has sidestep, he's about to go over the line next turn, and that's a battle of attrition KD can win. Once you have the opposing side isolated, outnumbered or both, you will find it very easy to set up safe frenzy-blocks and chain blocks. Roll enough block dice against an opposing ball-holder and they'll get knocked over sooner or later, regardless of their skills or stats.

    A quick word on Side Step: it is your kryptonite. Most of KD is unable to get Grab (due to possessing Frenzy), so a Side Step player will be all but impossible to push off the pitch. Furthermore, Side Steppers can maneuver themselves during a frenzy-block to force the 2nd block to be unsafe by leading your blocker away from friendly assists and/or into enemy assists. There's not much you can do about that except ignore those players or hope they suffer an injury during the match.


    The Buddy System

    The key to KD is setting up these safe frenzy-blocks as often as possible. To do this you want as much BLOCK on your team as you can get, you want to blitz with a horns+juggernaut player when the situation allows it, and you want to position your assists so that if a frenzy involves two blocks, both are 2D. This last point is crucial and deserves some discussion.

    Most players in Blood Bowl are ST3, including all but one of the players in a KD team. Therefore, when you are running around the pitch, hitting stuff, you should send your ST3 players out in pairs and position them to assist for both possible blocks during a frenzy-block. With proper positioning, two players can throw two safe frenzy-blocks against a ST3 opponent (which is up to 8 dice... that's got a real good chance of knocking them over). What's even better is if one of those buddies has guard. This is a team that can never have enough guard because of how assist-reliant it is on bashing. With guard you can have two of your players get in two safe frenzy-blocks against two opponents. And if you can, having one buddy have dauntless (or blitz with horns) and another buddy have tackle, and each pair of bashing buddies will be able to deal with the two things KD players hate: strong players and blodgers. Remember that frenzy is a probability amplifier, and ST4+ opposition forces you to make 1D, or worse -2D, frenzy-blocks (which carry a high risk of turnover), and blodgers increase the chance of your first block resulting in a push, increasing your chance of a turnover by forcing you to make that second block. Your dauntless-tackle pair of buddies will be flexible enough to reliably knock-over just about anything you encounter. So remember, once you've isolated your opponent into easily beaten-up groups, always bring your buddy to the brawl.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2014
  2. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    With the general issues out of the way, let's discuss the KD roster in more detail...

    Bloodthirster (BT): the Best Big Guy of them All

    Imagine for a moment a big guy as strong as a treeman, as fast as a kroxigor/rat ogre, with claws and probably mighty blow as well, with a nega-trait that works like bone-head (fails only 1-in-6) but DOESN'T cause them to lose their tackle zones, who doesn't cause a turnover on a both-down result, and who gets to make a second block if the first one failed to knock over it's hapless victim. Sounds pretty amazing, right? That's what the Bloodthirster is... when it's blitzing. When it's not blitzing, it's an extra resilient, extra expensive minotaur. Whether or not to hire a big guy with loner is a debate that has been raging between coaches for years, but I can say pretty confidently that KD should always aspire to hire their Big Guy... he's just that good.

    The BT is good at three things: acting as a road block for a team that lacks strong players, murdering high value and/or high armor targets, and breaking up enemy formations. Being ST5 and with wild animal, your opponent will normally try to avoid leaving anything important next to your BT, so standing a BT in front of a slow-moving cage can cause the cage some problems. With claw, frenzy, juggernaut and, after a little development, mighty blow, the BT can make safe frenzy blocks against almost anything, and will cause an armor break 58.33% of the time (so, a stun or worse about every other knock-over). This big guy is better than any other at removing other big guys from the pitch. Of course, he's not above crushing black orcs, sauruses, chaos warriors, and other ST4 pests. Now, say you're facing an undead cage, with at least one corner held by a mummy with stand firm; no way your budging that, right? Wrong! Have the BT blitz the mummy two squares away from the cage, leaving the mummy isolated (if not injured and off the pitch entirely) and the cage ripped open, ready for your forces to pour in and pressure the ball carrier. With one assist, a blitzing BT will knock over a wardancer (or other ST3 blodger) 60% of the time, and fend is no protection during this frenzy-block.

    Given how lethal, fast, and reliable the BT is while blitzing, you'll want to blitz with it far more often than you would with most other big guys, many of whom function best when they do nothing at all (such as a beast of nurgle or a well-positioned troll). Unless you give your BT Break Tackle, you might want to keep a Bloodletter Daemon nearby to push away any enemy lineman that try marking up your big guy. Like most big guys, a double should probably get him Block, but I will say that the BT, more than any other big guy out there, benefits the least from block (since juggernaut, frenzy, and 2D or 3D blocks make for reliable attacking), and benefits the most from Pro (reduces Wild Animal from 1/6 failure to 1/10 AND allows you to re-roll push results without burning a team re-roll). When he isn't blitzing, try and provide the two assists needed to get the BT a 3D frenzy-block on whatever is foolish enough to stand next to him. On defense, I generally prefer to put my BT one square back from the LoS so that he can discourage the opposition from advancing after knocking your linemen over. Of course, if your facing a team with regenerating or especially expendable linemen (such as zombies, skeletons, amazonian linewomen or thralls/hobgoblins) you might want to put the BT back a ways so he'll have a choice of targets to blitz/murder on his turn.

    General Development
    Normal: Mighty Blow, Guard/Break Tackle, Break Tackle/Guard, Stand Firm
    Double: Block/Pro, Pro/Block
    Stats: none, unless you take +ST after you have all the good doubles you want

    Killer Development
    Normal: Mighty Blow, Piling On, Break Tackle
    Double: Block, Tackle/Pro, Pro/Tackle
    Stats: none, unless you take +ST after you have all the good doubles you want

    Note, by taking Piling On, you are committing to blitzing with this guy constantly (since the wild animal nega-trait is pretty harsh like that), though he should put the fear of Khorne into the opposing coach.


    Khorne Herald (KH): The Beatdowns Cometh

    You get two KHs and you'll want them both, and you'll want them developed ASAP. They can take the abuse that your Bloodletter Daemons can't while having all the crucial horns+juggernaut and strength-skill access. Like the blitzers of other teams, you want to feed them touchdowns because they don't really come into their own until they've gotten 16spp with Block and Guard. As stated elsewhere, KD really needs guard, and guards really benefit from higher AV. If the need for guard on your team is dire, it is possible to get guard first and block second on a KH, since they can blitz and benefit from juggernaut, improving their reliability. I emphasize guard so much because the only difference between this 90k positional and your 60k linemen is superior blitzing and strength-skill access. So load them up with guard, mighty blow, and stand firm to help clear the field and hold the line; these guys will act as the bedrock of your team, upon which the rest of your merry band of psychopaths stand. Also, you should give these guys get preferential apothecary access, as they are valuable but don't have regeneration.

    It is certainly possible to turn one or more of KHs into killers with pile on, but I would recommend against it unless your Bloodletters are developed enough to fill in for them. Still, spill blood for the blood god as you see fit...

    Support Blitzer
    Normal: Block/Guard, Guard/Block, Mighty Blow/Tackle, Tackle/Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Fend
    Double: Dodge, Side Step (if you haven't taken Stand Firm already), Jump Up
    Stats: Any, though I'd hold off on +AV or +MV until skill #3 or later.

    Killer Development
    Normal: Block/Mighty Blow, Mighty Blow/Block, Piling On, Tackle
    Double: Jump Up
    Stats: +ST, maybe +MV after this guy was well developed
     
  3. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    Bloodletter Daemon (BL): So Many Possibilities

    You can recruit up to 4 BLs and they are one of only three units in the whole of Blood Bowl to get easy access to general, strength and agility skills (the other two being Vampires and Slann Blitzers). They are also noteworthy as being the only players on the KD team that DON'T have frenzy, allowing them throw a block without having to worry about what'll happen if they get a push. All this comes with the mixed bag of having the lowest armor on the team (AV7, booo!), but possessing regeneration (yay!); these guys will tend to suffer more armor breaks but accumulate fewer injuries than other players. Still, don't invite blocks, especially from opponents with mighty blow, nor should you leave these guys open to fouling. Generally speaking, you should look to screen your BLs from harm, and give them skills that improve their resiliency (block, dodge, fend). You'll probably want to bust out the apothecary should one of these suffer a permanent injury, but anything less (badly hurt, miss a game) and you can sit back and hope regeneration catches it instead.

    BLs are your natural choice for carrying the ball, which is handy because with four BLs to develop and so many skills to choose from, you want them getting the spp from touchdowns whenever possible... at least, after your KHs have gotten to level 3. There are many, many different ways to develop them, but here are the possibilities that jump out at me:

    Support Blitzer
    Normal: Block, Dodge, Guard, Side Step, Fend, Tackle/Mighty Blow
    Double: none, you have access to all the good skills already
    Stats: Any. Generally +MV over +AV unless the BL in question is very high level and worth the extra protection.

    The Support Blitzer is supposed to be hard to knock down, mobile and supportive of his teammates need for assists while frenzy-blocking. He'd make a fine ball carrier, though you'll want a team re-roll handy since he doesn't have any skills or mutations to help him pick up or catch the ball. This guy can always be used to blitz someone your non-dodging horn+juggernaut players would have a hard time reaching, though he's less effective at actually knocking someone over than his frenzying daemonic peers. If you developed all four of your BL this way, I'm sure they'd work just fine for you.

    The Sacker
    Normal: Strip Ball, Dodge, Block, Sure Hands, Guard, Jump Up
    Double: none
    Stats: Any. +MV over +AV so you can better reach the ball carrier

    If you blitz with a player who has both juggernaut and strip ball against a ball carrier who lacks sure hands, any result except a skull causes the ball to pop loose, even a both-down (and even if the ball carrier has block). That's because juggernaut converts a both-down into a push, which strip ball converts into a loose ball. The BL is the perfect chassis to take advantage of this skill combo, since they also have horns, which should give you at least a 1D block against the ball carrier (with a re-roll, you'll knock the ball free 97% of the time on a 1D block, and 91% of the time on a -2D block). Later on you can give this player Sure Hands so they can pick up the ball after the blitz, or act as your blodging ball carrier while on the offensive.

    The Killer
    Normal: Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Jump Up, Tackle, Frenzy
    Double: none
    Stats: +ST

    Normally I'd recommend the BH for killer duty, but they're generally needed supplying guard in the thick of a ruck, and besides you only have two BHs to develop. Since you have 4 BLs to work with, turning one into a killer is a reasonable decision, though I'd generally prefer to let my BT blitz something into a bloody smeer. Like the Norse Berserker, look out for using Piling On if it'd leave you vulnerable to a gang-foul, though with an apothecary and regeneration, the BL will most likely survive it better than his Norse counterpart.

    The Receiver
    Normal: Block, Dodge, Diving Catch, Catch, Side Step, Sure Feet
    Double: Nerves of Steel, but only on skill #4 or later
    Stats: +AG, +MV, although a +ST would be a real shame to pass up, even if it is only tangentially helpful

    With agility access, the BL is the only KD player who can become a reliable receiver. This begs the question, "Who exactly is throwing the ball to them on a KD team?", but if you have an answer (such as an AG4, Pass, Accurate Pit Fighter), this is the build for you. And don't forget, this guy can blitz away most opponents who would try to mark them up, run to the in-zone, and then receive the touchdown pass.


    Pit Fighter (PF): Mosh Pit at the Line of Skrimage

    These guys are expensive for 6/3/3/8 linemen, but they've got a lot of potential. While these guys should be suffering the injuries and marking the big guys in place of your more valuable positionals, you shouldn't treat these guys as disposable fodder like the linemen of other teams. With just one skill, Block, you have a useful guy who can make those oh-so-nice safe frenzy-blocks, send folks crowd surfing over the sideline, push guards out of position or force a dodge or take a punch like linemen are supposed to. Once you have Block, this guy should develop quicker than the average lineman, and soon you'll have a couple of Frenzy + Block + Tackle elf chasers or Frenzy + Block + Dauntless monster hunters to round out your roster. Again, if something has to get maimed, it should be a PF instead of of BL or a KH, but I'd recommend keeping these guys alive and supported (see the Buddy System section) so they can develop into the psychopathic whirlwinds of destruction that they are destined to become. Generally speaking, I'd hold off on fouling with them until you have a couple of novices sitting on the bench, ready to act as the cannon fodder their more developed brethren refuse to be. Also, if anyone on this team is going to have wrestle, it should probably be a PF. I'm not 100% sure this team even needs wrestle, since a safe frenzy-block or two has a decent enough chance of knocking over blodgers, and I'd prefer to counter blodge with Frenzy + Block + Tackle instead of Frenzy + Wrestle, but it's not something I would argue too strongly about. However, I will say that any chance you get, stick guard on your PFs. ANY. You might consider taking +ST over guard... maybe, but otherwise, sprinkle as much across your PFs as you can. I've mentioned guard is important for this team, right?

    Depending on how you develop your BLs, it may make sense to just give a PF Sure Hands and let him carry the ball. Plus, even if your sure hands PF is eventually replaced with a Blodge + SH daemon, having a backup ball carrier is never a bad thing. Curiously, PFs have Pass-skill access. Since the team suffers from very expensive re-rolls, it makes it tempting to give one of your PFs Leader so you get a 70TV reroll with a 20TV skill. While you could give a PF Pass, Accurate, maybe even Safe Throw, and use him as a thrower, that's a questionable decision unless that PF's first skill is a +AG. Still, it's nice to have the potential, even if just for the sake of novelty.

    Mosh Pit Fighter
    Normal: Block, Tackle/Dauntless, Fend, Dauntless/Tackle
    Double: GUARD!, Mighty Blow, Dodge
    Stats: +ST, +AG though if you get a +AG early, consider making this guy your ball carrier or thrower instead

    Kicker/Leader
    Normal: Kick/Leader, Block, Leader/Kick, Fend
    Double: GUARD!, Dodge, Side Step/Mighty Blow, Mighty Blow/Side Step
    Stats: +ST, +AG though if you get a +AG early, consider making this guy your ball carrier or thrower instead

    Ball Carrier
    Normal: Block/Sure Hands, Sure Hands/Block, Kick off Return/Fend, Fend/Kick off Return
    Double: GUARD!, Dodge, Side Step
    Stats: +ST, +AG, +MV

    Thrower (I recommend only if the first or second skill on this PF is a +AG)
    Normal: Pass, Accurate, Block, Sure Hands/Kick off Return, Safe Throw/Nerves of Steel, Nerves of Steel/Safe Throw
    Double: Strong Arm, Catch (in case you rely on some other player to pick up the ball and hand it to him), Dodge
    Stats: +AG, +MV


    I must admit that I was wary of the new team when I first saw it revealed, but having played it for a time now, I recognize it as something fun, new and yet thematic for the game. Bravo to the designers of the team. I hope you all find this guide helpful and your KD team successful. Respect the Frenzy and it will take you far. Take it for granted and the Frenzy will leave your players meditating on their failure, splayed out on the astrogranite.
     
  4. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    TV1000 Rosters

    A couple of facts to consider:
    * You have no starting ball handling skills.
    * Your re-rolls are expensive, and only get more expensive after team creation.
    * None of your players are especially cheap.
    * The only reliability skills you start with (juggernaut and horns) are only applicable while blitzing. The 10 non-blitzing rookies on the pitch will have to make due with risky blocks.
    * Frenzy is a probability amplifier, so your rookies go from making kinda risky blocks to VERY risky blocks.

    All of this should lead you to the conclusion that a rookie Khorne Daemons team uses re-rolls with alarming speed. And if that re-roll gets used early on, the rest of your turn could be nothing but praying for sixes or POWS.

    So, let's start with our most conservative Khorne Daemons roster and work our way out from there.

    Four Re-rolls: Safety Wheels for the Frenzy-Machine

    4xRerolls: 280k
    9xPit Fighters: 540k
    2xKhorne Heralds: 180k
    -----------------------
    Total: 1,000k, 0k left over

    This uses up every penny, but it does have a couple of things going for it. First off, your roster is entirely AV8, so injuries should be relatively few, Nuffle-willing. Also, it gives you as much of a chance to feed spp to your Khorne Heralds as possible, so they can get the ever crucial Block + Guard combo quickly. And, most obviously, you have four re-rolls to offer as much insurance as possible against your rookie savages causing a turnover. I'd prioritize getting an apothecary first, then buying two Bloodletter Daemons to start skilling up (while they hide behind their hardier kin), then buying the Bloodthirster.


    Three Re-rolls, Part One: Bloodletting

    3xRerolls: 210k
    7xPit Fighters: 420k
    4xBloodletter Daemons: 320k
    1xApothecary: 50k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 1000k, 0k left over

    This gives you an apothecary and 4 players with regeneration, which ought to cut down on injuries. Plus, this team has as little frenzy as it is possible for a Khorne Daemons team to have, making your pre-Block days a little less risky. Still, regeneration is unreliable and rookie Bloodletters are fragile, so some bad luck could leave you playing a match or two with journeymen Pit Fighters... and you thought rookie Pit Fighters were unreliable WITHOUT Loner... Acquiring both Khorne Heralds will be your first priority, followed by the Bloodthirster, and then either replacing crippled players, saving up for another re-roll (if you find you need a fourth), or dropping money into cheerleaders/assistant coaches.


    Three Re-rolls, Part Two: Thirsting for Blood

    3xRerolls: 210k
    10xPit Fighters: 600k
    1xBloodthirster: 180k
    ----------------------
    Total: 990k, 10k left over

    Normally starting with all lineman and your big guy is like taping a giant sign to your forehead that says "I'm a complete newb. Please pwn me." However, the bloodthirster, as mentioned above, is the best, most reliable big guy out there provided you're blitzing with him, and in this case you will. Every. Single. Turn. With a little luck, you'll maim a couple of key opposing players during the first drive, which will allow your team to overwhelm the opposition through the remainder of the match, rookies or no. The fact is, a Pit Fighter is functionally identical to a Khorne Herald when neither of them are blitzing, so this roster is not nearly as stupid as it seems at first blush. Plus, if you are facing a new coach, he probably won't know what to do about your giant demonic wrecking ball and might make some careless mistakes, like over-committing his team to try and get your AV9, regenerating behemoth off the pitch, or becoming overly cautious in his play to try and shelter his expensive players from your daemonic claw-beast. Use your winnings to hire a Bloodletter to carry the ball, then get an apothecary, and then bring your Heralds out. Hopefully by then your veteran Bloodthirster has enough SPPs from casualties and MVPs that he'll have gotten mighty blow and a double for block or pro. That's when he gets really nasty.


    Three Re-rolls, Part Three: the Daemoning

    3xRerolls: 210k
    6xPit Fighters: 360k
    3xBloodletter Daemons: 240k
    2xKorne Heralds: 180k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 990k, 10k left over

    This has the most daemons you can get and still keep three rerolls. You'll probably want to save for an apothecary first because AV8/AV7+Regen only goes so far, but after that you can start saving up for your big guy. Eventually you want to get your 4th Bloodletter, but with three of the to develop first, there's no rush.


    Three Re-rolls, Part Four: Thick Skin and Pragmatism

    3xRerolls: 210k
    8xPit Fighters: 480k
    2xHeralds: 180k
    1xBloodletter: 80k
    1xApothecary: 50k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 1000k, 0k left over

    Here you have three rerolls (safe), ten AV8 players (safe...ish), and a non-frenzy player to carry the ball for your (as safe as this team gets). This is a very sensible team, for the risk-averse daemon of infinite rage and bloodlust.


    Two Re-rolls, Part One: Daemonic Horde

    2xRerolls: 140k
    5xPit Fighters: 300k
    2xKhorne Heralds: 180k
    4xBloodletter Daemons: 320k
    1xApothecary: 50k
    --------------------------
    Total: 990k, 10k left over

    This starts you with all your positionals AND an apothecary. Two re-rolls is pretty skimpy but if you're willing to play carefully and rely on luck every now and again, this can work out well. This gives you the best chance of getting MVP on one of your more expensive players, though MVP on a Khorne Daemons lineman is less of a waste than it is on some other teams. Having six players who are all potential vectors for ST4 + juggernaut blitzing is hard to protect against, and should make life difficult on the opposing coach. Save up for an apothecary first. After that, you're going to need to get that crucial third reroll from somewhere, but if you're willing to have a Pit Fighter take the Leader skill, you can save up directly for the Bloodthirster instead of first buying RR#3 for 140k.


    Two Re-rolls, Part Two: Kill! Kill! Kill!

    2xRerolls: 140k
    7xPit Fighters: 420k
    2xKhorne Heralds: 180k
    1xBloodletter Daemon: 80k
    1xBloodthirster: 180k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 1000k, 0k left over

    As stated before, two rerolls requires careful play; if you are too cavalier you'll quickly run out of backup luck and then things get dicey. However, you have your awesome, reliable big guy to out-muscle the competition, a non-frenzy player to carry the ball, and both your heralds out to start developing into the guards this team wants so much. It's aggressive, but that's the nature of this team; with a little luck and some sensible play, this roster could take you far. Plus, more chances for MVP on your big guy is a good thing.


    Two Re-rolls, Part Three: Rage, both Restrained and Unrestrained

    2xRerolls: 140k
    6xPit Fighters: 360k
    4xBloodletter Daemon: 320k
    1xBloodthirster: 180k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 1000k, 0k left over

    Again, you have your big guy out right from the start, but you also have the minimum number of frenzy players on the pitch. I'd make getting an apothecary a priority, though this roster also maximizes the number of regeneration players on the pitch, so you could get lucky on injuries... but don't count on it. After all, you want to spill the OTHER team's blood. Regardless, get your Heralds out soon after and your roster is full with barely contained daemonic violence.


    One Re-roll: Pure Madness

    1xReroll: 70k
    4xPit Fighters: 240k
    2xKhorne Heralds: 180k
    4xBloodletter Daemons: 320k
    1xBloodthirster: 180k
    ---------------------------
    Total: 990k, 10k left over

    I include this option only for the sake of completeness. Don't do this. The Khorne Daemons roster is way too unreliable to function with just 1 re-roll per half, so you better pray for some good kick-off results. Now, you start with your awesome big guy, so there's that, but your team is going to frenzy or fumble one too many times sooner or later (probably sooner) and then your just left flailing around while your opponent scores and/or beats on you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  5. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    Playing Against Khorne Deamons: Weathering the Storm

    Coming soon!
     
  6. Boffa

    Boffa Active Member

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    Nice guide, thanks.
     
  7. Youleaf

    Youleaf Member

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    Real nicely done. Almost makes me want to try them but waaay to unreliable for me
     
  8. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Thanks Shatner, I may well reference this if I add them to the site.
     
  9. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    It'd be an honor. You have an amazing site here that has really helped me (and, no doubt, countless others) get better at playing this game. I'm glad you find the guide useful.



    An interesting comment came up on the official BB forum that I wanted to pass along here.

     
  10. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    2 rerolls is actually pretty solid, and should with careful play last you through 2/3:s of a half. All the way if you are lucky, and of course if you are unlucky there's nothing you can do to stop turning over anyway.

    However, there are two other 2 RR builds, ones that include the big guy, which is a popular option to get him running ASAP.

    There's the "I'm afraid of Frenzy" build with 4 Bloodletters, and there's the "I don't like AV 7" with 2 Heralds and 1 Bloodletter. The first build has 6 pit fighters, the second 7. Neither has an apo, and both hit TV1000 cleanly.
     
  11. ravage

    ravage Member

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    Great guide! Obviously a lot of time spent, and you make some great points in many places. Still trying to wrap my head around playing these guys, but I'm having fun with the learning process. They definitely present some unique challenges.

    I agree with Nokolai that I was surprised to not see another popular 2RR option with the bloodthirster in there. If you're willing to go without Heralds in favor of starting with the Big Guy, it's not a bad choice to consider

    Two Re-rolls:
    2xRerolls: 140k
    6xPit Fighters: 360k
    4xBloodletter Daemons: 320k
    1xBloodthirster: 180k
    --------------------------
    Total: 100k, 0 left over
     
  12. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    With 3 players all pretty similar in stats, skills, and price, there are going to be a lot of different rosters that are viable, and my list is not meant to be comprehensive. In fact, I think it reflects my personal bias against having fewer than 3 rerolls for a KD team, because that wasn't something I was seriously considering when I was mapping this guide out. That said, I will go back and add those I overlooked after people have had a little time to add them to this thread.
     
  13. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

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    What do you think of grab on the bloodletters? I would go for:

    Block>Grab>Guard

    on three of the bloodletters, and

    grab>block>guard

    on the others I think.
     
  14. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    Grab works well with a team full of supporting Frenzy players in my mind.
     
  15. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Depends upon the role you see for the letters.. I could see one block dodge grab one among the gang (especially for the sidestepping folks) but I think block dodge guard sidestep/SF feels like it's even more needed than grab..?
     
  16. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    Yeah, I was surprised not to see the 2rr rosters there. My favorite is the Thirster, 2 Heralds, 1 Bloodletter one.
     
  17. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    The TV1000 rosters section has been updated to be more comprehensive. Thanks for the feedback.


    Concerning grab on a bloodletter, I could see that as skill #3 on one (after Block and Dodge), so you can keep those sidesteppers from getting too cocky. I could even see you making a second grab-daemon, but anything more is excessive unless we're talking about a bunch of VERY developed (level 5+) bloodletters. Grab is certainly helpful, and a frenzy-heavy team can use the help positioning the opposition juuust right, but I have a hard time taking it as an early skill for a team that wants/needs so many skills.
     
  18. Shatner

    Shatner New Member

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    I haven't been playing BB:CE much of late, but I do play the odd single player game when I have a little time to kill. Anyway, in defiance of my own strategy guide, I have developed my Bloodthirster as follows:
    1) Juggernaut, Horns, Claw, Regeneration, Frenzy, Wild Animal
    2) Mighty Blow
    3) Guard
    4) Pro
    5) Tackle

    Yup, that's two doubles on a big guy who still doesn't have block. And you know what, I stand by my decision. Pro has made this guy more reliable: he overcomes his neg-trait more often, he fails due to crappy rolls less often, and he causes casualties more often. And tackle makes him better at both marking up enemies/making dodging past him more dangerous, while greatly improving his chances of knocking something over. I'm not saying this build is the bestest build ever, nor am I saying that block is not a skill worth taking (it most certainly is), but what I like about the Pro-Tackle combination is that each of those skills improve the BT's offensive potential.

    It seems like everyone and their squig has the block skill these days, which means my BT having block would be a defensive pick (i.e. he won't knock any more guys over, but he will be more difficult to BE knocked over). Furthermore, choosing the "both-down" option when blocking with a frenzy-killer is often worse than choosing a push, because a push gets you a whole other 2D or 3D block attempt; while blitzing I get to push on a both-down anyway. With tackle, my BT is causing more casualties (more opponents removed from the pitch, even more SPPs generated) and blocking more reliably because that "defender stumbles" roll no longer means another chance for me to roll skulls. And as stated before, block (and wrestle when not blitzing) protect against block, but there is nothing a dodge player can do to protect against tackle.

    I have certainly had moments when block would have been a better choice. Or Break Tackle. Or even Stand Firm. But now, every skill on that BT (save Guard and Regeneration) serves one purpose: to make him better at doing terrible things to whatever he can get his claws on. And really, isn't that what a Bloodthirster is really all about?


    On a personal note, I've found blodge to be a tiresome combo: tiresome because of it's ubiquity and tiresome because of it's obvious utility. The realization that one or both skills are rightfully included in virtually all builds for all players for all teams has served to erode my enthusiasm for the game. Block + Dodge is a combo that is almost impossible to top (improves mobility, survivability, and reliability while blocking) in general play, so I take no small amount of personal satisfaction in NOT taking either skill on this build. I state all of this to expose a bias I have -- this should help you all calibrate your salt-intake while reading my advice -- and to grumble about something that irks me.
     
  19. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Well written Shatner !

    Rarely does a beast that size need to defend itself... so I guess its good thinking.
     
  20. ravage

    ravage Member

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    I definitely hear you and your gripes regarding block-as-a-defensive-skill-only as well as blodge-gets-old-after-a-while. That said, I rolled doubles as my first skill in my league and I took Block without a second thought. MB can wait, and Block early in development (he got 3 cas in the first 2 games) has been amazing so far. Pro would definitely be my next pick though if I were to roll them again.