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Tactics A question of morals

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Limdood, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    I think it's very situational. Personally I won't do a T16 foul unless there is banter between the coaches that invites it, or occasionally as way to let off steam after a particularly bad game! In a league situation where a rival leaves an important player open to a foul may be another situation where I would consider it. In the OCC there are awards for players that foul a lot, so T16 fouling is often encouraged!

    In terms of my opponents doing it me I feel that it is part of the game and within their rights to do it to me. From a fluff perspective it makes no sense that two teams that spent all match trying to kill each other suddenly stop doing it because it's turn 16. Of course the lame part is that there is no risk in doing it in T16 and often no tangible reward in the current game either.

    My rule of thumb is that if it's allowed by the rules then there is little point in complaining about it, unless you think the rules are wrong and you can get it changed somehow! ;)
     
  2. Darkson

    Darkson Member

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    Bring back SPPs for fouls, and everything's rosy.
    I remember that T16 fouls only caused controversy after the BBRC removed fouling SPPs.;)
     
  3. Purgatory

    Purgatory Member

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    Personally, I record CAS caused by Fouls in the margins of my Team Roster when I play TT. I then use those stats to brag about my dirty gits.
     
  4. G20

    G20 Member

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    No, it's not really like that at all . It's great to have bad guys for the story aspect of a league, but it's not great to have certain teams with a sizable inherent advantage over the others. The bad guys can be built up through fluff or some other means. That's the fun way to build bad guys.
     
  5. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    No, this game may be moot, but changing their behaviour in future isn't.
     
  6. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    I do find this line of thinking kind of problematic, though.

    What kind of behaviour are you trying to discourage? The 'hurt the other guy at all costs' mentality, right? Okay, that's pretty laudable.. except that you're advocating a way of tackling that with a central plank of 'foul indiscriminately'.

    So... you're going to try ruin and the team of everyone you meet, but that's justified because they were potentially planning on doing the same - maybe not even in this match, maybe not even with this team, maybe some other team that was just a twinkle in their eye, the thought-criming bastards - and so you're actually doing a service to the BB community?
     
  7. nufflehatesme

    nufflehatesme Member

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    i prefer to think of them as group hugs.

    i dont think it would be an issue if instead of foul it was called "super happy group hug" :D

    more seriously, i will play the game which will bring me the most enjoyment, and i can only expect my opponent will do the same. the game goes for 16 turns, not 15 and a 1/2, so expect anything in those 16 turns.

    if u get upset about the dead foul t16 after you scored to execute the perfect 2-1 grind...... perhaps you should have scored earlier, so the opponent had a chance to score on his last turn, rather than give you a "super happy mega group hug".

    i guess what i am trying to say is, stop hugging pixels, hug downed players!
     
  8. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    No, not at all, its entirely situational and I certainly don't foul in most games on T16. But I don't agree that just because its T16 it has no point.

    If there's a coach that uses a final T16 dash to blitz me, or crowd surf me, or who attempted a last turn TTM or solo player end zone run attempt, then sometimes its better for me in the long run to remind some of these coaches that this can have consequences that make them think twice if I do end up meeting them again in a similar situation.

    Otherwise, they will feel they can do whatever they want in the final turns - which may including hurting my team - without it having a risk.

    Just as I would weigh up the chance of gaining 2SPP using a t16 kick off to blitz my star MBPO blitzer against the chance of him being fouled to death in revenge, I might not take that risk

    but another coach will go ahead and do it, if I don't show him there is a risk to it.

    That's protecting my players in the long term, even if only by a miniscule amount (though more so if its in a league where your exploits are discussed, or now with spectators).

    Edit:

    Also, bear in mind, while in Matchmaking, our TVs may mean my team won't see theirs again, I may be (as I am in FOL for example) running multiple teams, so there's a higher chance I'll meet that coach again, even that team again, so what I do in T16 might affect the result of another of my teams. Not often, admittedly, but in smaller leagues like FOL you meet these people more often than say Naggaroth or Auld World.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  9. Pottsy

    Pottsy Member

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    I can't recall anytime either myself or my opponent has fouled an opponent on the final turn. With the excpetion of curb-stomping journeymen and star players. If one of your guys isn't actually part of your team, they'll be crapping teeth for the next few days.

    Regardless, I wouldn't take offence to someone fouling me on the final turn. There are reasons to do so. Ranging from damaging your opposition chances in future matches to plain catharsis. Just bear in mind if you get a reputation of injuring players on your final turn, other coaches will be eager to return the favour.
     
  10. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    Im still struggling to foul with my elves, mostly as they depitch themselves fast enough without the ref spotting them, but when I get a full roster again...13 players, I have the cash but just waiting to see my first opponent.

    however my nuggle foul every turn with a rotter if possible! all your corpse's belong to me!!!
     
  11. JimmyHoppers

    JimmyHoppers New Member

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    I've been thinking about this myself a fair bit recently and I've pretty much come to the conclusion I feel fouling at any point including on turn 16 is completely fine.

    1. It fits the theme of the game, the warhammer world is quite a hate filled borderline racist one where the various factions are out for each others blood without any need for good reasons though 'it felt good' is a fine one by me. Yes your foul (on trn 16) may injure a guy that can in no way affect the game from there on out for your side but may have cost him a player that took quite some time to build up, though to that I still say 'tough shit', 'this is blood bowl' and so on.
    I mean afterall, it's turn 14 and you've got 3 goals on your opponent but they've actually managed to get somebody with the ball close to your endzone. Why are you going after their ball carrier? Why not let them score and get 3 spps, it's not costing you anything, you're still definitely going to win so what's the big deal?
    No. You'll still try and stop him just for the sake of wanting to destroy your opponent with a high a win score as possible. And rightly so.
    That's in the 'spirit' of the game, not handing out gifts, that's for Christmas and in the Warhammer world it's never Christmas, so when they try to destroy your players with a turn 16 team foul for the sake of their own pride don't act so hard done by.

    2. The bigger reason I think it may actually be a good thing to foul your opponents on turn 16 is to scare them into scoring faster in future games. By this I'm suggesting that when people stall til their last turn and often leave you with a 1 turn kick-off in which you can't properly score your options are limited since they'll often just stick 3 players on the line and keep everyone else at the back of the field.
    So what else is there to do other then pummel the 3 linemen and foul someone? Sure you could NOT foul someone but why be polite?

    If your opponent had scored on turn 14/15 he probably wouldn't be in this position as you'd feel you might at least have a chance to score and so probably be disuaded from standing all your dudes around someone for the sake of getting a foul in and possibly a send off/ turnover when you've got to try to setup for a quick goal.
    SO what I'm going around the houses in attempting to say is, if people get used to getting fouled on turn 16, especially the quicker elfy teams, it might encourage them to delay their scoring less often which in turn might enable you to get that final goal yourself at the end of the game. The decision is in the elfy dudes hands, does he want to risk you attempting a 3/2 turn touchdown or does he want to guarantee getting his 3 lineys (which actually may only be good players if all the crap ones have been injured earlier) pummeled down and potentially have a good player group fouled on the final turn.

    Using intimidation and the threat of a team foul to persuade your enemy into giving you a late goal attempt basically.

    Let me know if what I'm saying doesn't make any sense.
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  12. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Giving the oppo an extra turn to score means one more blitz and one more foul probably... so for elves it doesn't seem relevant. Better to risk only linemen/tree.

    Also elves aren't always the best team to stall... its easier to steal the ball than it is to keep a backfield cage in the oppo's half.

    As for the fouling I agree its "moral"... I just think that in the league format there are many more issues at play. Sometimes your beaten opponent having a healthy team to beat other teams is good.
     
  13. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Im not normally one for fouling much, but im going to start doing the turn 16 foul. I was called "predatory" with my undead, and this will likely get me labeled as such now that im playing high elves, but its getting down to the wire. We only have a single cup left until Blood Bowl playoffs, and its time to weaken the teams that are all 1800 TV or more, especially the unbeaten dark elves.. they need alot of boots, especially the agi 5 leap strip ball witch elf.
     
  14. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    You should boot them DURING the game to make the best use of it... :p
     
  15. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Oh, I plan on it.. if I put a gutter runner to the ground, or the rat ogre, the are getting the boot for sure from now on. And once I start fouling, im sure my opponent wont think of stalling. Im going to piss my league off for sure, as they are a bit soft ( i was labeled too predatory with my undead), but thems the breaks. They better get used to it now before they try and play in the tournament in Iowa City coming up.
     
  16. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Careful though... over zealous fouling... especially of the gang type leads to being out of position and suffering TDs. :cool:
     
  17. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    This is how im going to force teams to score fast.. if they even THINK of stalling, ill move the players too far from the ball into a gang foul position. And ill very clearly state " keep stalling, and I keep kicking them in the head" as the rest of my players advance on the ball.

    In regards to the turn 16 foul, im hesitant to use it, but I likely will occasionally do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  18. JimmyHoppers

    JimmyHoppers New Member

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    Sounds to me like a good idea to be predatory with the Undead. I mean anyone you kill by any means can always carry the excuse 'but I want more zombies!'.

    And then you fire them all right after the game to show the world what a truly heartless bastard you are.
     
  19. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Jimmy, you have NO IDEA how pissed off people were at me for how I played them. I would gang on players away from the ball just to force the faster score, and people would get PISSED at me. I didnt even throw fouls at all, just made sure I was getting 2d and 3d blocks as much as possible. ( they saw it as gunning for injuries, I saw it as minimizing my chance of Nuffle farting in my direction - his "winds of change" are something id rather not blow my way when im doing well) Alot of the players we have are a little... delicate... when it comes to someone deliberately trying to hurt their team. I clearly stated "mummies and zombies only get SPP from casualties, and i need them to develop" Apparently this wasnt good enough reasoning to try to hurt my opponent.

    they also didnt like that in 12 games, both my mummies were sitting at 12 casualties each, with another half a season to go. the most injury any player had accrued was 16 in an entire season until I came along.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  20. JimmyHoppers

    JimmyHoppers New Member

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    Yeh I know a lot of people are very sensitive about their delicate prancer teams. Hitting and injuries are what have to be done in order to win with the heavier teams, they should know that.
    Without a numbers advantage the nimble teams only need to score one good blitz on you to prevent you touching the ball again and opportunistic moves to get the ball are far more easily done when backed up by heaps of MA for positioning, +1 mods, negating enemy mods, laying down tackle zones, caging up the carrier etc and AGI then it's just a case of pick up the ball and throw it which are futher enforced by the high AGI and typically some passing skill just to cement everything.
    If they don't want someone to get hit by mr MA 3 mummy all they need to do is dodge away. What's he going to do, chase them? JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013