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Norse Advice for the "other" teams

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by sunnyside, Nov 9, 2009.

  1. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    There is a good bit of advice out there for bashy teams. Caging, the 2-1 grind, breaking a cage etc.

    And there is a lot of advice for agility teams. The one step back defence, how to swoop in to take out a ball carrier, how to set up passing/handoff plays etc.

    And there are the "we warned you" teams like Gobbo, halfling, Underworld and Vampire where you should either be a good sport up for a thrashing or a coach who is a level above the others in your local league if you're playing one of those teams.

    What I'm wondering about are the "other" teams that I would consider to refer to Amazon, Human, Necro, and Norse. They are characterized by a lack of ability to really win in a grind against many teams, and a lack of agility to switch to a dodging based defense without a large amount turnovers(even with re-rolls).


    In short I'm looking for advice for offence/defense on such teams. With perhaps a focus on Norse, since that's the one I play, but I feel it's a general deficiency.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  2. voyagersuk

    voyagersuk Member

    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Essex
    IMHO for those you need to adopt the "flex" methodology that applies to Dark Elves. Run on pass teams and pass on run teams. Use your special skills such as mass frenzy to make a difference and play the ball...
     
  3. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    Still though, I hear a lot about the range ruler also being called the "lose'o'meter" or "turnover generator". With DE they're still fundamentally an AG4 team, meaning that even without special skills they can throw and catch on 2+, with skills allowing those numbers even at longer ranges and when opposing TZs are involved.

    On AG3 teams you either have to live with 3+'s or worse or you have to invest heavily in the passing game, which means the list of teams you can successfully run against starts dwindling.

    And on defense they can switch to dodging if they can't win by muscle without falling on their face routinely even with a re-roll the way an AG3 team will.
     
  4. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Amazons are a very good bashing team. In fact I would do a caging running game with pretty much every team. It just varies in style based on the statline and skills your players have.

    Norse need to be really aggressive and do a lot of hitting and try and avoid getting hit back.

    The faster teams like humans can make good use of screens to protect the ball carrier as well.

    Defence is pretty much the standard methods still, just have to adjust to the race. Against cages Norse can do 2+ blocks as opposed to elven dodges. Use Dodge players on Humans and Amazons to dodge out and go to assist a team mate. Also helps to learn when leaving a player in a tackle zone doing nothing is preferable.

    Against the faster more agile passing teams, get a player in hitting range of the ball carrier, hit one receiver and smother the others. They don't really do things much different from a basic tactics standpoint compared to other races, just small adjustments to fit those tactics best to your team.

    If you find any situations you struggle with, make a diagram using the play creator site and ask for feedback on what you should be looking to do.
     
  5. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    Hurm/ *goes and checks out this play creator thing*

    Alright so

    Blood Bowl Play-Creator

    Might a typical sort of start. Norse team based on the Frenzyful example given in the tourney section (which I think is a solid enough build). But you could suggest why that's bad, as well as suggesting better defenses (I kinda threw this one together).

    But in any case the Khemri are coming in. During the initial blocks that mighty blow saw one player KO, one stunned, one prone, and the fourth didn't go down and just got pushed.

    The one skeleton is out of place as usually somebody got out of place to protect against bumbling the pickup.

    So, what's the best avenue of defense here? How do you expect the turns to progress? Of course it doesn't have to be Khemri, any suitably bashy team would do, and after other teams start skilling up there are plenty that can out bash Norse in a straight up ruck in the center as Norse armor will fail more often and other teams can bring more ST and Guard.
     
  6. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    18
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    Some questions :

    - Where is the ball ? Into the Khemri side, I suppose as it seems to be a first turn.
    - Where are the Norse Runners ?

    A bashy team at first turn usually knocks down (or pushes back if they are unlucky) its opponent's LoS. Against 3 Mummies, even Dwarves may have difficulties to withstand the first turn.

    In this case, forget about the LoS. Outrun it and move for the ball or the carrier. Block upon the Blitz-Ra and move your second player forward. Move a Berserker in front of the Skeleton on your left side, then Block it with the Lineman without following up. Blitz the Mummy close to the sideline with your Ulf, then move the remaining Lineman into the Khemri side.

    Then, try to free your LoS so that the Mummies may only hit once during his next turn.

    Runners should be present : more movement, Dauntless and Block (which should most of the time give them at least one die against a Mummy).

    If the Thro-Ra has the ball in that position (that would mean the kick has landed outside of the pitch), keep the Mummies busy on the LoS and blitz/block upon the flanks until some of your players may hit the cage from behind, even if it gives them space to move forward (3 turns are at least needed for them to reach the TD area while keeping the cage).
     
  7. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    Whoops. Shouldn't have just thought that was obvious. The Throw-ra has it in the middle of that cage.

    The mummies and one blitz-ra have made their blocks/blitzes. I'm figuring one lineman just pushed, a second prone, a third stunned(the one by the Blitz-ra) and a fourth KOed in the process. That seems to be a slightly worse than "average" but quite reasonable outcome from those blocks.

    And I think any Norse player could say they've seen a lot worse. Especially as the teams skill up and guard, mighty blow, and piling on start showing up all over.

    There aren't any. In deciding on a list for the example, I just used Joemanji's one from this board. If you think it sucks you might want to tell him about it here.
    http://bbtactics.com/forums/extra-frenzy-norse-roster-t50/

    However I think it isn't a bad build at all, and I've heard other people advocating something like it. Norse runners are, I think, generally overpriced for what they do right out of the box, as speed and dauntless don't go so well together. However once they get dodge things start looking up.



    I've seen this sort of start from Khemri (where just one or two players position to protect against the drop, and than the rest cage the thrower after they have moved. Though I suppose realistically one of those skeletons should be a second thrower, since there always seems to be two so one can be closer to the ball.

    However it isn't like I'm super experienced or playing in top tier tourneys. Do "better" khemri players fully cage the ball before picking up and just stay there with it?

    Anyway thinks for the feedback! I'm still thinking of how to do it right, but I like the "attack the back" idea. Although part of the issues is that it's risky and unreliable to try and move the LOS guys away from the mummies. Or maybe they should just take the hit.
     
  8. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    This means that the ball has landed outside of the field (that may happen, but bad luck ... especially against bashy teams) ou less than 4 squares from the Thro-Ra position.

    Ideal ball situation for the Khemri player (who has meanwhile succeeded to pick it up on a "rerollable" 4+ with "Sure Hands").

    The Thro-Ra position also means that the Mummies on the LoS have blocked before ball pick-up. Each Mummy has 1/9 chances of falling and make a turn-over and 1/2 (55% actually, even if I don't understand why the stats are the same whether the target has block or not -> Blocking Statistics & Odds Tables | Blood Bowl Tactics) to put Norse linemen on the floor.

    This looks like a quite positive first turn for Khemries, actually (even not talking about Armor rolls and Blitz). Norse players could have hoped far better.

    For me, they are necessary against bashy teams because you need to outrun them (MA) and block against stronger opponents (Dauntless).

    This cage is quite high on the pitch for a first turn. The best place where a Khemri player could set it up at turn 1, actually. A skeleton picks up the ball on 4+ (without "Sure Hands"). If it moves close to the Thro-Ra, the ball transmission requires another 4+ (without "Catch").

    Far more risky than 1 die blocks with the Block skill, for instance (even more than 2 dice blocks against with Block skill).

    I don't know ... I've never seen Khemries on the pitch yet :D

    Risky, yes : 1/3 chances of falling and turnover. Against 1/2 to be down but 1/9 to make the Mummy provoke a turnover.
     
  9. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

    Messages:
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    you can embed the play creator images (Think I need to make an info sticky thread with this kind of info). Just copy and paste the forum link box on the play creator site into your post (click on myplays and the forum link is under each play):

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4117[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    like that ;]

    Joemanji's roster was in the tournament section and not for league play. The initial rosters are generally not the same for both. I can see what I would do tactics wise here, though will have to write it up later as I should be working now!
     
  10. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm assuming you're meaning they are the same when the attacker does not have the Block skill.

    If I'm on the right track, it's likely becuase the table was worked out with the objective of having the attacker still standing after the block. The only time Block would be useful to the opponent is when a Both Down result is rolled, and if you don't have block yourself, that would be what is generally called "a bad thing". ;)

    Of course, I could well be off the mark in which case I apologise and we can all pretend this mail never happened.