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Tactics Analysis of Burning Phoenix's Pro elf tactics agains Vamps

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by tys123, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    @burning_phoneix
    Some thoughts about how you could have played differently against me.

    The elves initial set up followed by the position at the end of turn 1.
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    Overall the position after the 1st turn is OK but I didn't like how you got there and the vamps do have an option to blitz the thrower.
    1st of all the thing I really didn't like was that your 1st action on the 1st turn after you have set the players exactly where you want is a block by one of your 2 loner linemen.
    Blocking with loners is OK at the end of a turn when a failure isn't a big deal but you don't want to be doing it when you need to reroll a double both down.
    Also I would have left the thrower deeper as now I have the option of gazing the lineman on the right and then blitzing the thrower with the vamp on the far right.
    It would have taken 2 GFI's so I decided not to risk it but with the thrower 3 squares further back it wouldn't have been an option.
    How I would have set up and played the 1st turn.
    1st of all I would have the 2 blizers on the LoS on the left side. ST4 guard on the outside as he is going to blitz and the other one to take the 1st block.
    Also 1 lineman on the LoS in the wide zone to protect the catcher later. Then the ST3 blitzer blocks 1st and follows up on a knockdown. ST4 blitzer blitzes the thrall on that side and moves to 1 square short of where you put the catcher.
    Lineman on the wide LoS goes exactly where you put him six squares in. Then you can move the catcher up behind those 2 players 5 squares in . You can then move another lineman up and you have your catcher 8 squares from the endzone and screened from everyone.
    That done make the other 2 LoS blocks , put the catcher behind the LoS to receive the pass next turn and send a lineman up the other side to where you put the blitzer. Leave the thrower out of range of all my players.

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    I am not too bothered about you scoring so just blitz through a path the your catcher and mark him so you have to roll more dice and put some players into position to intercept.
    You blitz the vamp on the left blocking the route to your catcher , only get a push so move the players on the LoS to offer some protection before moving the thrower up and passing to the blitzer on the right.
    The pass was a 3+ but it all worked and you scored.
    Had the blitz worked it would have been a long pass or a gfi and short pass to the catcher so passing to the blitzer was the best call anyway.
    There was an option to blitz the vamp marking the catcher with the ST4 lineman after setting up the chainpush to move the thrall out as well.
    A pow or stumble would then have left a 2+ pass , 2+ catch , 2+ hand off rather than a 3+ pass , 2+ catch which is safer but since you only manged a push with the blitz it wouldn't have made a difference.
    A good solid 2 turn TD.

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    I am not sure what your set up for the kick off was meant to achieve. Normally a defensive set up wants to either stop the opponent moving down the field or protect as many players as possible from the blitz.
    Your setup makes it possible to hit anyone on your team if I want to. Not a problem against me as I have 3 vamps blocking on the LoS and 2 playing catch in the backfield but against a bash team it could get you into trouble.
    I would have gone for the turtle formation I used on my kick off but with the 3 players on the LoS all on 1 side.
    Offsetting the 3 LoS players means to block them all my LoS players also have to be offset so you can kick short to the weak side and if you get a blitz have a better chance to get the ball.
    It also means that on a perfect defence you can just switch them to the opposite side and I lose some LoS blocks.

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    You kick deep , your catcher gets KO'd by a block and I only mange to knock over 1 player on the line before throwing a pass for SPP.

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    You then knock down a thrall and run players into my half to pressure the ballcarrier.
    This is definitely the right thing to do but IMO you send too many players.
    With the catcher KO'd and a lineman stunned I would have sent 3 players towards the ball and left the other 6 between my line and the endzone.

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    This allows me to just pass the ball to a vamp on the line , blitz down one of the 2 linemen between me and the endzone and form a screen ready for a simple TD next turn.
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    You blitz a guy next to my ballcarrier and dodge a lineman out to make me roll dice but it isn't enough to stop the TD. I can't see anything you could have done better this turn.
    However everything is looking good for you as 1-1 after turn 4 gives you a great chance at a 2-1 lead. Just do the same again but either stall for a turn before scoring or keep more players between the ball and the endzone when defending.

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    You set up the same as before but are now down a catcher as he is still KO'd.
    You again start with a block on the line with a loner but can't knock down any thralls so instead run your best player ( ST4 Guard blitzer ) into my half and cage in your half.
    I really don't like the way you formed the cage that deep in your half.
    Leave the thrower 2 squares further back and I can't even reach him.
    Then those 4 players forming a cage can be up near the LoS forming screens preventing me from getting into your half.
    With elves being in a small confined space is bad as you don't have the ST or Guard to smash your way out. You are far better off if the players are more spread out. Then there is more space for dodging and screening your opponent away from the ball.
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    I mark the blitzer downfield , Blitz my way next to your blodge blitzer and injure a lineman before turning over with a double skull that I decide not to reroll.
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    The best play now is to go left, knock down the 2 thralls on the LoS and screen off your thrower in that area. Instead you start the turn but dodging away a loner to lend an assist , knock down the 2 players by your cage and for some reason move the thrower to where he can be blitzed down.
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    I do blitz down the thrower but the ball bounced to your blitzer so I just mark up most of your players. The ST4 is still downfield and gazed.
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    You don't have a lot of options here but you start with a 1D block with a lineman against a blodger, blitz with another lineman and then dodge the blitzer out.
    Since the blitzer has to dodge anyway it would have made more sense to blitz with him , get him somewhere safeish and then dodge the other players to attempt to screen him.
    It is fairly easy for me to hit the bitzer but as he has dodge and I don't have wrestle or tackle he survives the blitz and combined with the vamp near the deep blitzer bloodlusting , biting the thrall and failing the gaze you a chance to score on turn 8.
    You make the dodge , pass , catch and dodge so have a 2-1 lead at half time.
     
  2. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    To start the 2nd half you set up in the same formation as last time but it looks even odder as you are down to 10 players.
    You again kick deep but a high kick means I can catch it , pass the ball and get it to the LoS. However I also fail 3 bloodlust rolls and injure 2 thralls and stun a 3rd.
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    So you now have the man advantage and you just form columns and don't even blitz anyone!!!!! Yes your defence was too aggressive and you overcommitted on the 1st drive but this is far too passive.
    Blitz someone and form a single line. That way you might cause an injury and if I try to blitz through your line I can't get everyone through in support.
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    I blitz your ST4 blitzer but only get a push and also bite another thrall for a stun. Note that you could have sidestepped the blitzer so he remained in contact with the thrall I had already moved. That would have given you a free block next turn.
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    So you form more columns and still don't blitz anyone. Were you planning on waiting until I have eaten all my thralls?
    I do bite another thrall for a stun and get some SPP from passing.
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    And you finally make a play. I wouldn't have blitzed the blodge vamp who ran through your line as he is the hardest to knock down but moving into contact was definitely the right thing to do.
    I would have also stuck a lineman next to both the vamps at the back especially the one on the left as he doesn't have a thrall next to him. That means a failed bloodlust and he has to dodge.
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    I manage to keep my cage intact and farm more SPP with a pass but with another stun from bloodlust it is 7 vs 6 to you around the ball which will become 8 vs 6 if you move the catcher up from marking the vamp.
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    But you aren't aggressive enough and go for forming columns again. Even if forming columns was the right call the double columns need to be on the right.
    If the guy on the left was the single column the only way I get through it is by 1D blocking the ST4 blitzer and getting a pow or stumbles ( risky ) , moving the thrall out of the way to let a vamp through and then blitzing with a vamp. That doesn't leave me enough players to cage.
    Instead I can blitz the lone elf on the right and I have somewhere to go. However I think moving into contact and bringing the catcher up is an even better idea.
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    You then move 4 players back to screen before blitzing with the ST4 blitzer , follow up the knock down and then fail the dodge into a TZ to mark the ballcarrier.
    If you hadn't followed up then you wouldn't have needed to dodge. Also the catcher over on the left should have moved across to join the columns with the lineman marking the vamp on the left.
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    I then scored but even had the rolls worked I would have had the chance to gaze one of the guys in the columns and blitz the other away on my way to the endzone so moving lots of players into contact would have been better. Especially with the ST4 guard positioned correctly.
    I then make the dice rolls I need to score.

    You set up the same as before and run 2 catchers and a blitzer deep. But this time blocking with loners comes back to bite you.
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    That puts you in a lot of trouble and the only way out it to roll some dice and hope it comes off.
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    It doesn't so the game finishes 2-2.

    So in conclusion
    Look where you are putting loners , screens are better than cages , know when to be aggressive and hunt the ball , look for weaknesses in your defensive line before you move your players and keep the thrower out of range initially.
     
    Torantolis, Borke, sbr32 and 4 others like this.
  3. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Active Member

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    NOOOOO DON'T EXPOSE ME IN FRONT OF EVERYONE TYS!!

    Thanks for the advice, but you really should have punched in the winning TD at the end. It does me no good to get a point from sloppy play.

    As for my line of thinking: The reason I ran the ST4 Blitzer into your half is that due to losing a catcher, I was afraid to move more catchers into your half to get Blitzed, so I assumed the ST4 guy with AV8 was the safer dude to move into the opponents half.

    As for the defensive setup, I read it in a playbook. The idea is to hide the catchers in the "pocket" I believe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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  4. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    Yes it is a good idea to hide the best players behind the line.
    If you look at my setup on D the only way to hit the back 5 players is to run around everyone and bash teams can't do that.
    You need a lineman in the middle at the front to stop anyone hitting your best guys instead of 2 on each side.

    As for not scoring on turn 16 I would have done if a vamp could have scored but my TV is already getting quite high so I don't want SPP on the thralls yet.
    It wasn't about giving you a point but rather what is best for my team.
     
  5. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Active Member

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    Would something like the attached image be a better setup? Moving more guys to the third line as I get more catchers?
     

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  6. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Yes better, though ultimately you're going to want to protect the blitzers from being hit too, even though they're av8, because AV8 breaks too especially against clawpomb and blitzers are too important to lose turn 1. You'll see the majority of top coaches use the setup Tys posted almost regardless of the teams they are playing with or against unless they need to stop a quick 2 turn score or opponent lacks a killer.
     
  7. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Active Member

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    OK so something like this with an offset LOS, lineman to the left kick to short right? I have a Kick Lineman and a ST4 lineman. Should I place the ST4 guy on the open side or the center?
     

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  8. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    That is the setup I almost always used.
    I would put the ST4 in the middle that way he can move either way.
    Also it is really only Nurgle that are going to blitz the centre guy so they can stick the beast there with his tentacles.

    Kicking short is for turn 1 and 9. If the opponent only has a few turns to score you want to kick deep.
     
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  9. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Active Member

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  10. Supa

    Supa Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    This is an asymmetric defensive setup I like to use quite a bit with various teams, assuming opponent doesn't have frenzy on their lineup. It does only protect 3 players however so its functionality in perpetual leagues is certainly questionable, but I think it is fine when the team is relatively fresh (nobody important to protect) or it is a must win game for me. Either side will be totally blocked and opponent probably doesn't want to commit their whole team down the weaker flank anyways early on. Perfect defense and blitz kickoff events are pretty neat with this as well. And even better with kick of course.

    One interesting strategy with pro elves in particular at lower team values is to put the blitzers on the LoS, and sidestep ones square back so they won't be hit again if it's a push. They are also more difficult to foul away. However sometimes AV8 doesn't do wonders. :p
     
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  11. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    That is similar to my defence to stop a 2 turn TD.
    Just with the single columns at either side rather than both on 1 side.
    I you have the blitzers as the single columns the only way to break through is to knock one down. A push and they just drop back a square and the only way through is with multiple dodges.
     
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