Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by 20phoenix, Apr 20, 2015.
How many points I came 2nd on 25 haha
2D brought some serious fouling game last season. There must have been 4 teams that would have won dirtygit had they beem in a different division.
So I haven't really watched any of his games, but what makes you say this? I'm genuinely curious what you consider examples of "good" sideline play vs bad play.
I'm still a novice to BB, the OCC being my first experience with it.
My experience against him is first hand having played against him in season 25. Bad sideline play is not considering surfing as a threat and protecting against said threat as well as failing to acknowledge or consider the skills a team has that may influence there ability to control the placement of players generally across the pitch but more critically when playing on the sidelines due to the serious threat and issues generated by players being pushed off the field when it could have been prevented if time had been taken to consider the opponents abilities in a view to the above.
The threat that needs to be considered in regards to sideline play is not limited to surfing alone, playing down a sideline with a slower team is shutting down your options offensively if your opponent has a effective defence and your side lacks the skill sets required to by pass and alter such a defence. While a defence set along the sidelines with little thought to how the offence can manipulate and control player positioning in that area can quickly enable them to control and isolate parts of your squad leaving them unable to participate and influence the game at best and at worst looking to take a beating or becoming the next players to leave the field via crowd surfing.
Its also important to realise that you need to consider more than the possible initial viable outcomes from player blocks/blitzes and include various permutations involving chain pushes and grouping or bunching of players that can be manipulated to allow for control and advantage in this battle.
In my previous encounter with Gcar and its been commented on by other of his opponents he placed little thought into the deeper strategies of control and placement when defending the sideline against the offences advance. In the game against me this led not only to several players including a Wardancer being surfed but also it allowed me to isolate several memebers from his squad so they could not assist in the teams defensive efforts for the remaining turns of the drive.
Playing with a mindset of sideline control is however a very dangerous tactical choice and generally something a coach should only fall to if they are confident of not only there coaching ability is stronger in planning and protecting themselves than there opponents but also there squad is developed and built with a greater advantage than the opposition in this regard. It's because of this I normally avoid initiating such a conflict and tend only to actively respond if my opponent forces play in that direction at which point I will see what they've got so to speak in tactical terms and only after feeling them out and discovering my opponent is weaker in this line of tactical chess will I commit fully to it as a viable way of gaining a in game advantage, however if I feel we are equally matched or I'm inferior at this type of play I will actively alter my focus towards escaping the situation via any relatively safe method I can see. Though at least in recent memory I've not encountered a coach/team that is noticeably stronger at this style of play and when it has happened that the battle seems one that's fairly balanced the other coach has also looked to move away from the sidelines to avoid the danger of playing along the edge of the pitch without a tactical advantage can present.
It's a highly interesting aspect of the chess match style positioning involved in blood bowl (too me anyway at least) and its the intricacy of such play that form the basis of my preference towards control and blocking tactically opposed to high agility style play (along with my love of pixel CARNAGE).
Which division were you guys in that season, do you remember? I am rather curious to watch the replay - I realize that while I recognize and talk to a lot of coaches in tier 1 this season, I haven't actually played most of them, at least not in OCC (I've played Dio several times in BBT tournaments). As a matter of fact, the only two coaches whose teams I've faced before are Squall and Gusya. So I have a lot of studying to do.
Gusya has very strong sideline play, and I've heard many other coaches mention it as well. I think Khorne definitely has an edge there, as even with my multiple sidesteppers, getting tied into sideline play ended up in multiple surfings in both of my matches with him. Although the bigger threat was his killer Herald. That one is touched by Nuffle, for sure.
My team also lends itself towards sideline plan and I'm not shy to move the action there. With 4-5 sidesteppers and a leaping st4 witch, I've surfed many opposing players who thought they had a strong position. Then again I have the agility to disengage if the position doesn't favor me after all, which Khemri can't do.
I really enjoy these tactics talks, you don't see many discussions that go this deep into the mechanics.
edit: I also find it interesting with your comments (and others') that nobody has seriously made GCar pay for that weak sideline play. Is he really that good? Or simply on a run favored by Nuffle? He has a good team overall but looking at the team I don't see anything amazing.
Division 3B same as I am now, got promoted and relegated between the two (2d) twice now.. lol
I didn't think so and was unlucky to get held to a draw against him though in the first half I made a critical mistake blocking my route to the endzone. Second half Khemri handling ruined the day after I broke his offence and his team. Sadly that's the a down side of playing a lot of Khemri.
Agreed Dark Elves can be sideline specialists though you need to be careful of strength teams as Grab, Juggernaut and Stand Firm will turn your plans into nightmares that I can promise Naturally however I believe Khorne have the best potential out of anyone for such plays, however I find there early development beyond infuriating and as a result have never really taken up the team properly, though I've been meaning too for a long long time.
This is a question I've asked. My attention is always drawn by coaches with amazing records who I've never seen play. Especially those who talk it up. Will be interesting to see if he can walk the walk
I wonder if he likes sidelines when tents get involved. Shame my BoN died, the grab,BT,SF has meant the surfing of a few ss players
GCar is good, but not as good as Hawca for instance. He's good at smack talking but I also think he lacks a bit of humility necessary to win the whole thing. Last season both Joun and I defeated him, with Pros and Orcs, so he's not invincible. He will tell you that's because he rolled quad skulls T8, but we're playing Blood Bowl here.
I honestly don't recall if there was any significant sideline play during our game, but you can look up his game vs Dio where I know he took some risks in that regard as lengthily discussed in Dio's blog on the OCC boards. What you can expect for sure is a very aggressive style of play. His column defense was also quite impressive I must say.
If I buy a BoN I can have two set of str 5 Tents for maximum hugs
The sideline is the place to be. How else are you meant to defend with 6 players.
The thing no one seems to be mentioning about gcar is hes got 5 guard players.
Thats monsterous. Id cause mayhem with that.
I think it was his team I beat him first time around with my pro elfs and he was moaning a lot in chat about it and at the time I gained a numbers advantage but still played safe due to his wd threat and a leaping catching who may have had an agi boost and he was mocking me for forming a cage, he may have been trying to put me off I dunno but it did get annoying.
Cages worry me against other elves. Ive been burned before when someone dodged into my cage and freed the ball, winning the game.
Its "only" a 5+, usually with reroll.. 4s at agi5. If you can score next turn and win then its worth a punt.
Very true, but against multiple Leap players a screen is often even worse. They only need a 3+ to do the same thing, and it's very hard to build a layered screen from multiple directions without also completely "balling up" the team. I found that against determined wood elf opposition the only thing I can do is make sure I have a SH handler, and then go ahead and let them take -2d Leaps into the cage (at least two opposite corners should have Guard). If they pop the ball on the 11% chance, they pop it (most Wardancers don't have Wrestle). And if they don't, I will hit and stomp on their dancers next turn as much as I can.
I ended on 53 points (57 scored but started on -4)
Should be interesting but I think I will go for the plan of holding onto as many as I can while attempting to get the maximum amount of hits I can... then fouling every chance I get.
At some point the number of guard players he has won't matter when they get broken. Av7 guard has a short shelf life, and it's only a matter of time.
He certainly entertains, however. That 2B smacktalk thread was one of the more entertaining reads in a while.
That having been said, he still has 5 (or is it 6?) guard players for the time being. It was the first thing that jumped out at me when I looked over his roster - so much Guard on any elf team can be devastating.
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