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Cyanide Blood Bowl 2 Bretonnian Skills

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Kylusen, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. Muundus

    Muundus Active Member

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    I would be hesitant to base my opinion on Brets on the stattracker as of right now. Brets are a relatively new team that people are still learning, whereas the other teams have been around for ages.

    Sage is absolutely right here. Those blockers have way too much they need to be doing to be worrying about Fend early on. And with the exception of one "Blitzer" player, the main ball-carrier, they have too much going on as well.

    Fend is a great skill, but it is not one of the fundamental skills that every team needs in order to be truly successful.
     
  2. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    True. But there is something to be said for synergy. So I'm experimenting.
    Started the team with 4 blitzers, 2 yeomen and 7 linemen.
    It does feel like that much fend is making a difference... Perhaps. Or maybe it's just because I've been very fortunate.
    Anyway, managed to win both of my first games (3-0) against (buffed) Gobbos and Chaos Pact - so admittedly not top of tier 1 opposition.
    Got a leader and an apothecary after the first game, leaving me in good shape for game 2.
    Now, after game 2, I've taken Fend on two Blitzers - so I'm putting my Money where my mouth is.
    Anyway, 3rd game is against Daemons of Khorne, so Fend will be useful against some of them (Frenzy) but not all of them (Juggernaught)
    Wish me luck :)
    Cheers
    Martin
     
  3. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    My line up is 2 knights, 3 yeoman, 7 peasants.

    I like them.

    On Knights: leader to keep the tv low. Sure hands to make picking up the ball less of an issue. Dump, then NOS, then pass on the sure hands. Buy third, get leader and fire which ever doesn't get a stat or double by level 2.

    Couple of blockers get tackle, frenzy, strip ball... other gets gaurd.

    first peasant gets kick, rest get dp then block/wrestle.

    They aren't as bad as people think, but having all 8 positionals make them bloaty and is often a waste... the 40tv peasants are great at everything except the ball. Imagine a gobo team except with ball handlers instead of trolls (and swap st with ag: 6 3 2 7 fend vs 6 2 3 7 stunty)... get people on the floor and then gangfoul them. except with the blitzers playing throw and catch.

    (nb my BC2 season is not a good example so far!)
     
  4. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi Knornight,
    thanks for chipping in. I will eventually develop a Blitzer to take on Dump-Off duties.

    I do Wonder why you (and admittedly pretty much everyone else) prefer to not use all 4 Blitzers. I mean, perhaps they are 10K overpriced - but on both my teams the Blitzers do pretty much everything. I have a hard time seeing them doing very well without that.
    Is 2 Blitzers working out for you?

    I came across the same thing with Khorne recently. I'm playing against a guy with just the linemen. No Big guy, No bloodletters, no nothing. I'll give him that his TV is quite low, but the team doesn't look very scary. To me at least. He may yet hand me my ass.

    Cheers
    Martin
     
  5. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    I started with 4 knights and 4 yeomen in our perpetual league and I am doing fine. I lost alot of peasants as well as 2 yeomen and a knight. So far I have not been able to replace the Knight.

    I find that this is one of the teams that benefits from wizards alot. The speed and starting skills mean that I can punch a hole in most screens so if I get the ball on the floor it is easier than most to take advantage. Whilst in the long run I want my missing Knight back I do believe that the team benefits from a low TV. So I will keep an eye on the TVs around me before getting back to four Knights. It also means that the Yeomen are more likely to get TDs and hence skills which will hopefully benefit the team in the long run.
     
  6. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    In the munch cup, so far I've had 4 teams that have been hundreds of tv higher and I've lost every game.

    In another ten team league (one of each race) where we all started at 1000tv, I'm second to a Skaven team (3w 2d, iirc). But there maybe a difference in coach level. I wouldn't call myself a great coach by the way.

    I think Knights are prob ok for 110, although compare them to any other teams blitzers and they come off worse. I liked a comment in this thread comparing them to runners with block... 100 would make them more competitive. As I've said somewhere else, 110 is probably how much they are worth individually, but if you have four, that's probably a lot of wasted catch and dauntless. prob block too...

    When bb2 came out brets were new to me, so obviously went with 4,4,3... I think the spamming of fend is much better with 6-7 peasants, but you don't tend to get that many blocks (against good coaches, most will be just leaving you with a couple) so why pay for 8 players with block/wrestle when you'll prob only get a couple of good blocks?

    I should also say, I don't want to only play tier 1 teams. I don't want them to be made equal, I don't want balance. I like playing brets as they are, but I do think they are harder than a lot of other t1 teams.

    Bit of a stream on consciousness, but at work and no time for editorial!
     
  7. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    Block isn't wasted imo, but catch, dauntless and P access aren't something you want 4 of.
     
  8. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    sage agrees with me I must be right! ;-)

    Actually I want to add a caveat, 4 catchers with catch are worth while, 4 blockes with block, worth while, but four players with all those non-synergistic skills... how ever hard to play, however good a coach you are, you're not going to be getting full use of all those skills.
     
  9. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    Well to be fair, I think having 4 Catchers is worthwhile becuase they are MA8, not because of catch. If they were 10k cheaper and didn't have catch, it would make the race stronger. If they had block/dodge/wrestle/sidestep to begin with instead of catch, it would make the race FAR stronger.
     
  10. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    4 catches with high mv is absolutly worthwhile, anyone with catch should take block so thats a tick. Having duantless on a catcher is ok
    Totally disagree with the catch hate, its decent skill and having 4 recivers is significant in short drives and setting up dummy plays.

    The starting blitzers are actually great. The problem is progression. With no access to strength or agility they struggle without doubles or stat rolls
     
  11. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    I would be concerned that any of the buffs suggested for the Brets would create a truly top tier tournament team. If we gave the blitzers ST access with nearly as much block/wrestle and guard as dwarfs but much faster and added dauntless. I think it is right that any new team should try and ensure that they are not OP in one of the main forms of BB as it makes it far less likely to be accepted. Part of the problem is that in BB2 there are only top tier teams and Brets so the consensus builds that they need fixing. However in the context of all of the teams in BB they fit in nicely at around the Underworld/Khemri level.
     
    Orielensis likes this.
  12. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I agree the blitzers shouldn't get Strength access.
    However Agility access is a different thing.
    I consider Brets to be a hybrid team than can bash their way through the elves but need to run around rather than through the bash teams.
    The bash teams have lots of S access but no A (apart from goblins which are rarely taken).
    The Agility teams have lots of A access but only the woodie tree has S access.
    The hybrid teams ( apart from Brets ) have a mix of S and A players.
     
  13. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    I think a bit too much mental energy is expended trying to 'improve' the Bretonnian team, when what they really need is a 'change.'

    Let me explain: For the majority of the other teams, regardless of tier, the teams have an internal synergy that maps out 1 or several play styles that are fun for the coach. At present the Bretonnian team is a self-conflicting team that is intended for the upper tier 2 or lower tier 1 range but underperforms, or at least appears to, because it conflicts with itself.

    I also think perhaps the focus needs to be shifted from unilateral buffs to either the blocker or the blitzer, and instead to a change on both.

    For the blocker, drop wrestle and replace with Grab + Jump Up. Increase cost by 10k. It's a unique package that gives options on development. Grab accents Fend in positional control and Jump Up helps define the speed advantage over Bash teams while synergizing with Wrestle and Piling On.

    For the blitzer simply switch passing to agility. This adds diversity to both regular AND double skill ups, because there are more functional choices in regular and takes doubles skills from being strict requirements to several good choices.

    This breaks NoS+Dump Off... but that's a gimmick, and a team above tier 3 can't just be a gimmick.
     
  14. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    I'm not a big fan of that way passing skills were given to player groupings with more than two players on both the cyanide Khorne and Brettonian rosters. It feels like a compromise to ensure the teams aren't too good. I can understand its likely hard to build a well balanced team that's not too good and not too bad, but it doesn't seem like spamming pass access is the way to do it.
     
  15. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    Well to be fair to cyanide, chaos pact did set a precedent. And no, it didn't make any sense there either. =)
     
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  16. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi Jav, Zyrael, Sage, Tys, Valculdra, Cjblackburn and everyone else for that matter :)
    I think that there is no doubt that the Bretonnian team is a little weak. Whether this is bottom of tier 1 or mid-high tier 2 remains to be seen.
    I believe currently they struggle because the rest of the teams in BB2 are tier 1 teams. Many of them high tier 1. But there are plenty of teams like the Brets in BB. And, IMO, they are not a weak starting team. I'm guessing mid-tier 1. I think they'd do reasonably well in a NAF-res tournament - but admittedly that is not the format of BB2.

    As was mentioned above by others, as their TV climbs, their struggles intensify. Keeping them around TV1600 and relying on induced stars is probably your best bet in a TV-matched environment.

    If the team was ever to get buffed - and I'm not sure that it should - then my personal preference would be for A access to be added to the GP access on the Blitzers.
    If anything else had to be done, I'd go with 6337 Fend linemen. I'm just not sure that would be a real improvement. There is something to be said for 40K linemen :D

    @Jav - to my mind there is a marked difference between P on everyone, and P on an 0-4 position.
    As Sage said, the BBRC put P in all the marauder linemen on the Pact team. The main reason was that the Pact team is emulating the Chaos All Stars, who had throwers, so they wanted the option to develop throwers. The alternative would have been to add an 8th player type to the roster. So - either choice would have been unprecedented, but I'd argue they went with the least obvious one.

    The Khorne team then also had marauder-like linemen. But I'm pretty sure the real reason behind their P-access was the novelty of having a bash oriented team with access to both passing and aglity skills - meaning a real passing option. (Orcs do have this is well, if you're keen on gobbos).

    On the Bret team, the P access is just on a 0-4 position. A running style position, which in retrospect should probably have been called a Runner rather than a Blitzer. Admittedly the GP access was intentionally weaker than GA or GS. So it was gimping move. And perhaps it was touch harsher than I had thought. But at least the Bret coach is faced with some unique decisions. Personally, I think there are more to be done with P-access than just the Leader pick.

    Cheers
    Martin
     
  17. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi guys,
    what I really wanted to do was report in on the progress of my two Bret teams, and maybe get some skil advice.
    I'm in a play by email league, and we play 5-game seasons + 1 off-season/championship game.
    I have one team around TV1600 (TV-trimmed following advice given here), and a brand new TV 1150 team where I intend to focus on Fend.

    So far my new team is 3-0 and my developed team is 2-0 (leading 2-0 in their third game, with 6 turns to go).
    Admittedly, the opposition have not been top shelf tier 1 teams. That said, we play NTBB, so the weak teams are generally not quite as weak as in regular BB.
    My new team has beat Gobbos (3-0), Chaos pact (3-0) and Khorne (2-0)
    My developed team has beat Humans (2-1) and High Elfs (2-1). Last opponent is Khorne, and I'm hoping for a 2-1 here as well.
    ...so yeah, not a single high-tier-1 team :eek:

    My teams so far:
    *Noblesse Oblige*
    Blitzer Fend
    Blitzer Fend
    Blitzer
    Blitzer Leader
    3 Yeomen (one MNG/-MA)
    7 Linemen (no skills, but all 3 MVPs)
    2 ReRolls and an Apothecary

    *Force Majeure*
    Blitzer Tackle
    Blitzer Leader, Mighty Blow
    Blitzer ST+, Frenzy + SKILL?
    Blitzer MA+, Dodge, Pro + SKILL?
    Yeoman
    Yeoman
    Yeoman AG+, Sure Hands (28 SPPs)
    Yeoman Guard
    Lineman
    Lineman DP + SG
    Lineman Wrestle
    Lineman Wrestle
    Lineman Block, -1MA

    ....here too, MVPs have been going mainly to Linemen. The DP has 5!! Skilling the Yeomen has been a real problem - especially because all games matter, so I can't really dedicate a game to skilling.

    Cheers
    Martin

    PS - I disagree that the team skills don't work well together. Sure, Wrestle on the yeoman is not as good a fit as block would have been - for both bashing and guarding. But it still allows you to throw your blocks safely. Amd it serves a purpose on the team. As for the Blitzers - I use both Catch and Dauntless quite a bit. I know others recommend running very few Blitzers. I just can't see how that is supposed to work.
    Oh, I intend to write a playbook for the Brets over the summer.
     
  18. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    Force Majure is shaping up pretty nice there, I love the +ag yeoman as a ball carrier and a MB blitzer is very handy as well.

    For those SKILL Blitzers i am assuming you rolled normal? You look like you need a bit more tackle at this stage so I would go with that on your dodge blitzer since he is you most mobile player by far, not sure why you have pro on him either? You could also go tackle on the other blitzer since there is really not much else to take for a frenzy player, shadowing can work well on frenzy players with high mv, can setup unexpected crowd push chances at times.
     
  19. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi Valcurdra,
    thanks for your response.
    I don't actually know about the skills rolls yet, as this is play by email, and there are still a few turns to go. Heck, I don't even know if the players will survive!
    I love that Yeoman too. He is headed for Strong Arm, which will give me a respectable passing game if I'm on hurry up offense.

    As for the skills, I don't really miss tackle that much. After all I have the 4 wrestlers and 1 tackler to deal with Blodgers. Along with a pro and a frenzy player. So generally I don't feel like I need it.
    I might take it on the Frenzy guy. Or I might take it on the Mighty Blow guy. I don't think I want it on both of them. And certainly not on my MA8 guy also. I'm thinking about strip ball on my MA8 guy. Or possibly shadowing. (Yes, shadowing. Putting a TZ on a normal slow/running ball carrier, will force the Blitz).

    Cheers
    Martin
     
  20. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

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    For me, all roads on this question now lead to @cjblackburn , the Claudio Ranieri of BC2 Altdwarf.

    We need an additional "BC2 coach of the year" trophy, so he can win something if he keeps his brets in the top tier but doesn't win the actual championship (6/10 get relegated).