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Cyanide Blood Bowl 2 Bretonnian Skills

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Kylusen, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    I'm the Big Sam of BB. Not good enough to win anything but I will do you a job.

    Brets are fine. I play a niggly conservative game mostly in leagues and they can be built to do that. Lots of early tackle and a kick on the knights with mass Guard on the Yeomen means you can hunt down the Elves and slow up bash teams so they can't just concentrate on hurting you.

    Long term it's the classic aim for about 250k less TV than most of the teams you are facing. Then take a bribe and a wizard and foul the opposition. Lots.
     
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  2. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi all,
    the game is over, and I ended up winning 3-0, so my teams are at 6 wins and 15-2 TDs for the season :D
    The MA8 Blitzer didn't skill, but the ST4 blitzer did, and so did a Yeoman.
    The Yeoman rolled doubles, and I'm tempted by Dodge, but since my only Guard is MNG and I probably won't be playing the team that many more games, I'll probably just take Guard.

    The ST4 one (w. Frenzy).... I'm stumped. Here are my thoughts:
    Tackle is the obvious choice I guess. But with 4 wrestle, 1 tackle, 1 frenzy and 1 pro, I'm not really sure I need it.
    Sure Hands - with Block and ST4 he can protect the ball from those annoying wardancers and gutter runners.
    Fend - Works best when spammed, and protects against PiOn. I'm getting better at utilizing Fend.
    NOS - Helps on offense. If this guy catches the ball in a TZ, he has a good chance of busting out. Will also let me build towards a dump-off defence with my last blitzer.
    Pro - I like Pro to knock stuff down. Can be used to try for pushes when he is trying to crowd surf someone.
    Shadowing - When trying to force a lineman towards the sidelines shadowing isn't that bad. Generally people run away from him.
    Pass Block - He's got Catch, and on defense he is generally in the vicinity of the receivers.
    Kick off Return - offers some protection against Blitz! But I generally use the AG4 Yeoman to get the ball.

    Anyone?
     
  3. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    BTW - both the ST4 blitzer and Mighty Blow blitzer are obvious choices for Tackle.
    But that would probably mean firing my original Tackle blitzer, who has finally made it to 15 SPPs.... No chance I'll be able to build up a new one to 1 or 2 skills.
     
  4. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    Trying to make this team work... it's hard to say the least. I'm averaging 55ish win rate with most teams. Trying Dwarfs for the first time in the Big Crunch 2 and I'm 5 wins, 1 draw.

    But right now, with Bretts... I'm 1-5 in the past 6. Part of that is due to MM+ matching me ONLY against teams 400k+ over me.

    A bigger part of the problem is the team bleeds rerolls. There is perhaps no team, other than Slaan that has more starting skills while lacking core skills. The team seems to 'want' to utilize wide reversals utilizing handoffs and passes in the same turn. But it's a low agi team without sure hands or pass to start with.

    The viable, though hard to build, alternative is the human/Helf hybrid. A dedicated Knight passer with 3 hard target receivers supported by linos and blockers with skills that help create positional advantage.

    The problem with either team strategy is an over reliance on foul luck. Bretonnians can't hold a line vs any sort of bash and can't stop an Elf team outmaneuvering them. So the solution to both is heavy use of fouls... but there's a large amount of luck dependence there.

    I have less issue with a team being weaker than others (I love vampires) than I do it being disjointed and asynergistic.

    The Knights were clearly over-nerfed... but even if they stayed in their previously, admittedly, over powered form... the team would have just been all about one power position and still been a poor play experience.

    I LOVE CRP+ and wish Cyanide had just adopted the whole package... but the Bretonnians weren't ready for prime time.
     
  5. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    A (ST 4) blitzer with frenzy should get either sidestep or stand firm on a normal roll, though you might prioritize dodge or mighty blow.
    Oh wait, he doesn't have access to A or S skills? I'm sorry, I thought you said a blitzer. Good thing he has P access though, GP access is also really great to have: dumpoff + nerves of steel seems to be the intended development plan.
     
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  6. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    @Sage. The problem with Dumpoff + NoS is that it's plan contingent on failure. That's 150k TV dedicated to your cage or screen failing and you getting hit, but hopefully not losing control of the ball... but that's contingent on a nearby player being able to catch... hope it isn't one of your AG 2 linemen.

    The wisdom seems to be that several of these players stacked is viable... but at minimum 150k a pop what's the gains? 300k for an out of turn quick pass that will probably fail?

    You have a Brett coach buying 4 blockers because, despite their horrible starting skill, they are the only S access. Aside from speed and block the Blitzer brings nothing to the party. They are AG 3... so you can get them to ball handle because your Blockers have to hold things together and the Linemen are AG 2. Then dauntless is in there... you want to throw your ball handlers, and most expensive players, at big guys with AG 3 and no dodge to get away?

    I've got to stop. I could go all day about the self-contradicting nature of this team, but my blood pressure doesn't need it.
     
  7. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Wrestle isn't a horrible starting skill, sub-optimal yes, but not horrible.
     
  8. Muundus

    Muundus Active Member

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    I disagree. First those two skills are not a 150K investment. They are a 40K investment. You will be taking the Blitzers, I would imagine regardless of whether you plan to give them NOS and Dump Off, and therefore shouldn't count the cost of the blitzer as part of the dump-off investment. Additionally, every blitzer comes with catch. NOS and Catch is a great combination regardless of whether you plan to do dump-off. I think you would find that many coaches have no problem investing in NOS and Dump off. 1) It is protection in the case that your cage fails (and it is easy to always plan to have a Catch Blitzer near the carrier so you don't have to worry about throwing to those AGI 2 linemen); and 2) It allows you to play more loose when you need to in order to win, without worrying as much about whether you are leaving your ball carrier open for a blitz.
     
  9. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    It is still taking skills on a plan to fail. Plus it isn't even a very good backup plan thanks to AG3, even if you had pass for a free reroll on the passing action of dump off as well both the pass and the catch each have at least a 1/9 chance to fail (Assuming the reciever is a NoS blitzer as well).

    Also in most these situations you use dump off, the reciever will likely be marked by multiple players, which even if he has NoS, if he gets the ball he pretty much has to dodge out of his position, with AG3 and likely without the dodge skill.

    All in all, it is 40k investment per blitzer you give this to (Which will most likely be at least 2 of them if you went this route so 80k tv) for something you shouldn't need in most games and will rarely make the situation that much better compared to if you just had other skills like Sure hands to help recover the ball after it got sacked etc.

    Admittedly though, there isn't a great deal of normal level up skill picks for blitzers in the first place which makes this option less bad than if you wanted to try it on any other team. Seeing as other than some tackle, frenzy and sure hands, there isn't really much else worth taking on the blitzers, to the point where I personally would fire and rehire them repeatedly to try and get stats or doubles on them and to keep tv trimmed down.
     
  10. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    Given that there are few useful skills for blitzers on normal rolls, nos comes in as one of the better choices for the blitzers. Dump off cost 20k on 1 player and nobody says you have to use it if you dont want. Really a trivial investment.

    Taking skills in case you fail is also fundamental to blood bowl. Every cager has blodge on the ball carrier, which they wouldnt need if the carrier didnt get hit.
     
  11. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, though you can't really compare blodge to NoS or dump off. Dump off ONLY works when getting hit. Blodge has other uses in the fact it helps you dodge, or make hits to have the ball carrier blitz themselves free (Or otherwise just be more useful when they don't have the ball.)

    Id rather save any TV I could by having unskilled Bret blitzers to make me more likely to have a bribe, wizard or star player / avoid giving away any inducements than the far too highly situational gain from skills like dump off.

    I fire goblins on my goblin team who level up at all wtihout doubles or +AG for the most part as even sidestep doesn't add a lot to my general game plan as goblins. Plus with the need to keep your bank at 150K or less, makes it far more tempting for me to sack and rehire Bret blitzers under the same logic of waiting for a stat or doubles within the first 2 level ups.
     
  12. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    D'oh, I guess the tone of my message wasn't quite clear enough. Here, I fixed it for you:

    On the bright side, you have paid a huge pile of gold for catch (you know, a skill that you never give to a player on purpose), and dauntless (great synergy with ST4 there).

    I honestly think 1-2 blitzers with lucky rolls, 1 RR + leader, 4 highly skilled blockers (probably with block at some point =( ), and a big bench with dp are the way to play Brets quasi-competitively.

    In fact, it's actually a great starting skill on just about anyone. The only two exceptions I could think of would be... your slowest positionals, or your S access players. Especially your only S access players. It's horrible on those, because it's bad with Mb, it's bad with guard, and it's bad with juggernaut.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  13. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    I DO think I misinterpreted your tone a bit. That last bit of this post genuinely made me laugh out loud in my office before I could catch myself.

    As for the predetermination of the Bretonnians... I'm currently spending some spare time laboring under the theory that they can develop into a good passing team. Developing one Blitzer with Sure Hands, Pass, Accurate, and Strong Arm allows him to safely advance the ball, use cheap linemen to screen, and have 3 passing targets who have a very easy time getting free and are hard to put down, especially all 3 at once.

    We shall see tho. It's possible I'm being overly optimistic and Bretts really are on rails similar to the dorf team... tho significantly worse in ever measurable way.
     
  14. DireSickFish

    DireSickFish Active Member

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    A NOS Pass blitzer passing to a POS blitzer with catch has a 20% chance to fail. I did not realize it was that bad until I rant he numbers. If you get Accurate on your Dump off guy (meaning a 60k TV investment and 3 level ups which takes time) you're looking at a much more reasonable 14% chance of failure. Which is much better odds than the 30% chance of getting a POW on a 2d block on a Blodge ball carrier(or a 1d with RR if they're willing to RR). But you're investing 80k + the innate cost already factored in for having catch.
     
  15. Muundus

    Muundus Active Member

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    I agree with you that there are better skills than dump off and that other skills should be taking priority. However, I can see a place for it on a Bret team.

    I wouldn't sink it into many of the blitzers, but I think it is okay for your primary ball carrier as insurance for your drive. I certainly wouldn't put it on 2 and try to perform crazy dark elf runner moves. So you put NOS and dump off on the primary carrier, then you put nerves of steel on as many of the other blitzers as you are comfortable with to act as the primary's safety valve. These definitely aren't the first skills these guys are taking.

    Also, in direct response to your claim that dump off does nothing unless your player is hit, I disagree. Dump off is a skill that has to be accounted for by the opposing coach in his game-plan, the very existence of a dump off player will alter the opposing coaches strategy on defense.

    The whole, "But the safety valve will just get marked after the pitch to him," argument really isn't valid. First, it typically takes quite a few players to successfully set up a blitz into a cage, so there may not be any players left to mark that safety valve. Second, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, even if they are using players to mark the safety valve after the dump off, at least they aren't using players to pick up the ball and try to score after they knock your ball carrier down.
     
  16. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    I don't think anyone is factoring intercepts into their Dump-Off math. Best case scenario for the Bretts, let's call that an additional 1/6 failure chance on any attempt... because given the nature of the skill there WILL be an intercept chance.

    Whoever said it, I think Sage, It's very true that Dump-Off and NoS start to become 'ideas' only because of the extreme limitation of useful skills available to the Blitzer. If you are like me and are 20+ skill rolls without a double... it comes to the forefront of your mind.
     
  17. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, though my counter point would be, if your ball carrier is getting hit while in a cage (So likely from a leap), then chances are all your dump off targets are already being marked either from the player hitting the ball carrier, or the players trying to counter assists your cage would be providing against them.

    As for dump off changing how they play, it does to a very small degree (Making sure there isn't an easy dump off target before hitting them) but they still have to and will try and hit your player regardless of if he has the skill or not, and the general defence plan of stopping the other team from advancing isn't changed in anyway from this.

    My main point, to not debate this for too long, is that if you are trying to have the most competetive team, you are in my opinion better off with unskilled blitzers (Or equally less skilled blitzers who just have not been taking dump off etc) to save the TV for inducement reasons.

    If you mostly just want to have fun and are not worried about min/maxing your team value, then it is a fair skill to take. Just very sub optimal to other choices, which sadly is very lacking from bret blitzers.

    If I were to try and change the bret team, I would add S access to the blitzers, remove it from the blockers and give the blockers A access (If they are supposed to be squires who help the Knights aka blitzers, they need to be agile to get passed the opposition to assist them)

    It feels like the only reason Blockers have S access is because of them being squires and they need to be able to get guard to assists the knights.
     
  18. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    A access on blockers actually makes a good deal of sense. In addition to wrodge there's Jump Up that buffs Wrestle, and that in turn makes Diving Tackle attractive. Side Step also highlights the Bretonnian position manipulation 'theme' (I'm being generous there.)
     
  19. Muundus

    Muundus Active Member

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    Generally I agree with regards to the leap aspect. The proper way to defend against leap blitzes on your ball-carrier is through generous application of guard. If I had a dump off player with surehands sitting in a guarded cage I probably would elect not to use the dump off at that time, and instead just take my chances with the 2d block in my favor.

    However, leap isn't the only way to get to the ball-carrier. Bashing teams would likely just try to base up one turn, and peel the cage and blitz on the second. It happens frequently. Those bash teams can have trouble getting to the dump off target if you are screening effectively, and then all their work is for nought.

    But honestly, for the most part we agree. I wouldn't take dump off on a primary ball carrier on a bret team until minimum Star player, maybe even Super Star. But I have used it successfully with orc throwers who have made it to that level. It can be a useful option.
     
  20. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    @Muundus that's a bit tortured. Lots of ifs, maybes, and probablys. It's cool that it is situationaly useful on your Super Star Orc Thrower, but frankly to progress the conversation, do you think access to the skill goes any length to justifying the state of the Bretonnian team or even just the Blitzer in particular?