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Cyanide Blood Bowl 2 Bretonnian Skills

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Kylusen, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. Muundus

    Muundus Active Member

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    If you mean, "Do I get excited that blitzers have the option to try to be a dump off team?" Then the answer is most assuredly no.

    Furthermore, I always think it is silly when teams have a plethora of players with access to the passing skill (Cyanide has done it with both of the teams that they have created and I just don't get it. It's even more of a waste on the Pit Fighters then it is on the Bret blitzers).

    But if you're asking me," Could I see giving one player dump off?" The answer is yes, ONE, at roughly star or super star level. If he hasn't gotten anything juicy.

    Honestly, the only real difference in opinion between us is based more on the fact that I don't really agree with firing key positionals just because the player hasn't rolled any doubles. The only players I do that with are those that actively get worse with advancement if they don't get a double, and whose whole role on the team is basically just to be an extra body (snotlings, gobbos, halflings, Back-ups. That sort).
     
  2. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. ;)

    Wasting a doubles on strong arm would be throwing good money after bad. Dodge or mighty blow would be so much better. [sarcasm]Might as well add diving catch on another blitzer's doubles.[/sarcasm]

    I planned to get leader on a blitzer asap (and drop from 2 to 1 RR), and cycle my blitzers for better rolls (AG or ST ideally). My first ever blitzer rolled Mb for his first, and piling on for his second skillup. I still don't have leader. =)

    Cyanide didn't create the bret roster, they just implemented it. Also, there is a precedent in pact marauders (and no, it didn't make any sense there either).
     
  3. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    I think MB is the natural doubles choice for a bret blitzer. MB really is a fantastic skill and gets exponentially better in combination with other powerful skills.

    The combination of block/dauntless/MB is actually crippling to a bash team, daunt reduces the strength advantage, block dramatcally reduces risk and increases knock downs, mb dramatically improves collateral damage. All this can be achieved at level 2.

    MB is equally effective against agility teams since they tend to have lower av, this is increased further by adding tackle to improve knockdown chance and improve the value of basing vulnerable targets who rely on dodge for protection. Level 3 to get tackle/mb.

    You can of course make an argument for dodge, especially on a ball carrier. But mb is still a fantastic choice.
     
  4. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    If the bretonnians had ONE of their positionals hampered with questionable starting skills and skill selection... that'd be one thing. The fact that BOTH of their positionals suffer from borked design is irredeemable. Very good coaches can win with this team sometimes. But that doesn't make it a good team. Some people put it high tier 2, I'd put it low. I honestly think, when trying to win, I'd take goblins first.
     
  5. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    To play Brets well in a league you do have to play with inducements like Gobbos but mass ST3 and General access is a major upgrade.

    Compare Brets with Pact, Khemri, Underworld and Vamps and suddenly they don't seem so bad certainly at low TV.

    They are different in that they peak very early in the TV scale and fall behind. A number of teams do this but Brets are certainly the most extreme example.
     
  6. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    At TV 1000 you can add Chaos, Nurgle and High Elves to that list. Bretts have decent starting skills and stats at that level, its their advancement options that are borked, especially after the first couple of normal skills. Think you're underrating Underworld though :).
     
  7. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Brets are fine as long as you can keep rolling doubles on skill ups, preferably about 50% of the time ;)
     
  8. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Heh. Another topic entirely, but it could be interesting if people got to pick skills freely.

    TV would be raised, like:
    20 for a normal
    40 for a "double"
    60 for move/av
    80 for AG
    100 for ST
    Would possibly have to have a limit to "amount of non-standard skills on player" to two as well, but it would make for another way of skilling up for sure. And it would help the Brets. :p
     
  9. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    Ogres would be unstoppable. I'm in. :D
     
  10. plasmoid

    plasmoid Member

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    Hi all,
    thanks for the few proper skill selection suggestions. Seems the thread veered a bit off from there :eek:
    I thought I'd offer up my take on the issues raised by Zyrael, Street and to a lesser extent The Sage.

    First off, there is no denying that the Bret team is not the strongest team.
    However, using the stat tracker for BB2, they are currently between 42.1 - 47.1 win percentage after almost 1600 games (CI95), so they're somewhere between low tier 1 and high tier 2. While that makes them most likely the weakest BB2 team, they're not exactly horrible, especially considering that in BB2 they're currently only pitted against tier 1 teams, while most other sources of BB data also includes games against tier 1.5, tier 2 and tier 3 teams.

    @Sage - I get that S or A skills would make the Blitzers considerably better players. And there are so many teams where you can get those Blitzers. G and P are the two weakest skill sets. But that's what they get. That's the major weakness of the team, and a Bret coach will have to handle that as best he can.

    @Zyrael - I'm glad that you like PCRP+, and I'm sorry that you dislike the Bret team so much. It appears that the team really isn't for you.
    That said, some of the things you write are a bit surprising to me.
    Let me start by saying that if you get matched against teams with 400TV higher, then the odds are stacked heavily against you. That's the intent of the inducement system, and AFAIK analysis done on actual games show that your chances tank around being a 300-400 TV underdog. So it isn't just the Brets losing your games..

    But I'm really surprised to see that you think they're reliant on foul luck (I foul about twice per game), and that they're bleeding rerolls. They have good blocking stability and catch on top of that. That doesn't make for a bad running game. Sure Hands or Leader or both are a priority, but other than that they're not a particularly turnover prone team. IMO. In fact, I think they're quite good at low TV, and are - IMO - not gimped against other TV1000 opponents. I do agree that the further they develop, the more they struggle.

    As someone else has already said, I don't consider Wrestle to be a horrible skill, even if it is inferior to Block. Nor do I agree that Blitzers bring nothing to the party. They got 4 x Catch and 4 x Dauntless for 80K. That's about as cheap as it is possible to get 8 skills. I find both of them to be quite useful, and not a bad deal at half the normal Price for a skill.
    I do agree that as they develop, they don't get as much bang for their buck as the other Blitzers in the game. Which is rough. It is up to the coach to decide whether to settle for decent skill picks (rather than great ones), or do-over and hope of stats/doubles.

    @Street and Zyrael: Is dump-off a worthwhile Investment? It certainly isn't a strategy common on any other team - presumably because other teams have better options.

    I'd say that if you like to develop one of your Blitzers as a regular Thrower, then the added investment isn't much.
    If you don't like to develop a regular thrower, then dump-off definately isn't worth it.
    (For example on my developed Bret team, an AG+ Yeoman has become the team thrower, so I won't be investing in dump-off on that team).

    I get that dump off can be seen as "plan to fail". But I also think that it can be factored more actively into your gameplan, rather than just play 'exactly like you used to' - but with dump off. Dump off used actively allows you to play a looser formation, and if some elf decides to waltz through your formation and take a shot, then you're reasonably well protected.

    It's kind of like with the mass Fend on the lineman. If you don't use it actively, then you will get little advantage out of it. IMO.

    As for the in-game odds, if your ball carrier is getting hit by anything competent backed by a team reroll, then dump-off starts to look pretty good. If the elf comes at you with 2 dice uphill and no reroll, you should probably just take it on the chin :D
    Oh - one more thing (Zyrael), if your reciever is standing right next to you non-diagonally, then there is no chance to intercept anywhere.

    Cheers
    Martin

    PS - oh - Street, Yeomen have S access because it allows them to develop into two kinds of useful serf: Guard/Stand Firm to help with the fighting. Or Strong Arm (and several G skills) to develop into a comptent ball fetcher.
     
  11. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to respond in depth plasmoid. I don't think Brets deserve all the hate they're getting and it's easy to knock someone who's adding new things to the game, so thanks for your efforts to make Blood Bowl better.

    Brets are not going to be my favourite team and I wish the blitzers had better development options but I do think they're an interesting option at low TV.
     
  12. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    So one of my wrestlers got a double and I picked jump up, am I crazy?

    I am considering turning him into a pomber, is that a silly idea?

    Considering I have jump up already is po an acceptable option before mb, or is that just silly?
     
  13. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    JU is a solid pick. It synergizes with piling on, and with wrestle. You still want mb before po though.
     
  14. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    If you are going to Pile On on everything less than a casualty, no matter what, then Piling On will give you more SPP.

    Aside from that, MB is probably better, since it keeps your player upright, but if you prefer being prone (hiding from blocks) then PO is reasonably legit.
     
  15. twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB

    twitch.tv/the_Sage_BB Active Member

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    That may be true, but if you really want to pile on KOs (and on failures to break AV9 without mighty blow) for more SPP, then I'd say you picked the wrong race. ;)
     
  16. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    Ace, this is exactly the kind of information I've been looking for... And it's as I thought... I figured piling on everything till I've levelled to get mb was my plan!

    I'll prob play it safe and get mb, but it was worth asking about. :)

    Even before that my jump up wrestler has already had a game where his skills were useful, so I'm happy with the choice! :)
     
  17. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    Something else i have been thinking about with bretts is the peasants.

    Do people feel that they are worth leveling? I am starting to think keeping them as level 1 guys is better.
     
  18. DireSickFish

    DireSickFish Well-Known Member

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    1 skill would be fine. Kick, Dirty player, or Wrestle. I can't see them getting a whole lot of mileage out of a second skill.
     
  19. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    I was thinking of letting my kicker get block. You obvs shouldn't get block/wrestle on dirty players, you're just adding more tv to someone who's job is to get sent off!
     
  20. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

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    I used a Knight as a kicker. They get alot of SPPs and not alot of choices for development.

    It was a conditional choice as I was in a league with other rookies. So early Kick did a 'Job'. It kept the bash teams off my team for a bit and kept the Elves honest. I wouldn't necessarily do it but it was worth considering.