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Blood Bowl 2020 Rulebook Leak

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Coach, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  2. bein

    bein New Member

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    Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but 'Brawler' is a strength skill. This mitigates the big guys lack of access to general skills (or cost of secondary skill now), I feel like that might make a difference in progression for those guys.
     
  3. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    Anyone knows what’s this thing about having to redraft at 1300 TV? Jimmy Fantastic said something about it in the first comment of that video.

    edit: maybe this reddit thread answers my question.
     
  4. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    It was introduced in BB2016 but not in time for BB2 online, but effectively you build up a budget based on the length of a league and effectively reset your team at the end of the season, having to buy back a combination of your old stars and new recruits until you've spent the new budget.
     
  5. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Amen. I've never understood it either. There are plenty of other teams to complain about that are far worse that Dwarfs. I think its just internet mob mentality nonsense tbh.
     
  6. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    They are no worse at passing than before. Your runners (3+ PA players with access to Passing skills) can still do the short range screen pass to keep the running game going. You can also now leap over down players, making your run game even stronger. Dark Elves are going to have a very cool offense now.
     
  7. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    I mean, I am a goblin coach at heart so my reason for hating dwarfs having tackle should be obvious!
     
  8. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

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    All will become clear.

    But simply put dwarves are tier 1 in LRB6 and BB2016. With these changes all other such teams were nerfed to some degree, some heavily.

    In terms of delves, one problem for them will be the likely increased prevalence of dwarves :D
     
  9. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you mainly coach one of those teams you'd hate them too ...
     
  10. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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  11. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    Page 49 : « If, when making the Passing Ability test, the dice roll is a 1 after modifiers have been applied, the ball will deviate from the square occupied by the player performing the Pass action before landing. »

    A pass can be:
    • Accurate
    • Innacurate : failing the PA test means the ball will scatter 3 squares from the target square.
    • Wildly innacurate : modified roll of 1 means the ball will DEVIATE D6 SQUARES FROM THE THROWER’S SQUARE (as a kick).
    • Fumble : roll a natural 1, and the ball will bounce 1 square from the Thrower’s square.
    Say I make a Quick Pass with a PA 2+ player. I roll a 1. Is this a Fumble, or a Wildly Innacurate pass?

    Same player attempts a Long Pass (-2). Am I right to think that a roll of 1 is a Fumble (-1 after modifier) a roll of 2 is Innacurate (0 after modifier), a roll of 3 is Wildly Innacurate (1 after modifier), and 4 or more is Accurate? Or should the roll of 2 be also Wildly Innacurate because the result is less than 1? If so, it basically means that unless making a Quick Pass, all PA 2+ players that fail a pass will be Wildly Innacurate, unless they Fumble on a natural 1 (which is most probably better than D6 squares in random direction).

    That Wildly Innacurate rule is completely ridiculous. A skilled Thrower could end up throwing the ball 6 squares behind himself. This doesn’t make sense at all. I know stupid things are supposed to happen in Blood Bowl. But this new rule is completely ridiculous.

    Say what you want that the ball should be run and not passed, reality is, FOR ALL RACES, at some point passing the ball is the best option, period. In the video about Teams, both Jimmy Fantastic and Gorilla were quite salty about UNDEAD passing ability being nerfed. They know that, when you successfully put pressure to force a TD and only have a few turns to score back, a deep kick often means the ball will have to get thrown eventually. AG 3 Ghouls and Wights can do Quick Passes on a 3+ under the current rules, but they’re down to 4+ and 5+ now. Also, what about all the times you successfully steal the ball on Defense, and the best/only way to move it to safety is to make a pass?

    I suppose that all races will suffer from the new rules equally, and I should take comfort in this. But I really don’t like these new changes, and I cannot understand why they so badly fixed something that didn’t need to be fixed. They should have just removed the +1 SPP from completion if they wanted to stop vanity passses. I could have lived with that.

    To be honest, I don’t believe Throwers are less important than they were before, quite the contrary. There are so many occasions, when playing fast and agile teams, that you must pass the ball to eventually score a defensive TD... And even on Offense when things go wrong (after fumbling to pick a shallow ball, or suffering a Blitz event, etc.). Fail these, and you just lose the game.

    Me, I’m seriously considering recruiting 2 Throwers for my Wood Elf teams. Any AG 4 players can catch the ball, but only the Throwers can now make the plays that make the race so successful both on Offense and Defense.

    Dwarves unchanged, agile teams all nerfed, Accurate and Safe Throw Skills now split in two to make matters worse : I’m really not excited with the release of the new version, and will continue to play BB2 as long as I can.

    Edit: My prediction... This new version will be popular at first, but many Leagues will want to use the BB2016 version after 1-2 years of trying BB2020. We will probably have another revision to go back to a certain form of the current rules before 2024. Players who want to bash will play the new BB3, while players who prefer the ball game will stay in BB2 (even more now that the bash teams are gone). The community will split, and both games will suffer from that. And no, Wood Elves are not Tier 1 in BB2020. Too many elf bullsh!ts happen when a random player just pass the ball. This no longer possible, they’ll drop dramatically in rating, Wardancers or not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  12. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    The fact you think the problem that needed to be solved with throwing was vanity passes shows exactly why passing needed to be completely overhauled, because it has become so badly warped as a tool tactically.
     
  13. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    I don’t know if they were trying to fix vanity passes. I can only guess so. But their solution to that problem is the wrong one, and the most complicate of all.
     
  14. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    What they're trying to fix in my opinion is:

    Teams passing without needing a dedicated thrower.
    Teams with a dedicated thrower not using them because they're not any better at actually throwing.

    In this I believe the changes succeed on both counts.
     
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  15. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I don't believe you can modify below a 1 so your example the roll of a 2 would be Wildly Inaccurate.

    A skilled Thrower doing Long Passes should surely have Cannoneer!

    2+ PA unskilled Thrower doing a Long Pass (-2) would be as follows:
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3. Wildly Inaccurate
    4-6. Accurate

    If they have Cannoneer then the roll of a 3 becomes Accurate too whilst a 2 is Wildly Inaccurate. Sure a wild throw is going to be a pain, though it makes punting the ball down the pitch riskier for poor throwers (I'd suggest a fumble would be a better result a decent amount of time as at least then it's in at least one tackle zone, or might fumble to a team mate you stood next too). Doing a 3+ Long Pass with one skill for a 2+ Thrower is the same as before for an AG4 player.

    This doesn't seem outrageous to me for an unskilled rookie player. Throwing the ball that far should be tricky to do. Also don't most coaches try to get the Throwing range as short as possible. First because it's an easier throw, second because it's easier to avoid an interception possibility.

    So doing a Short Pass (-1) with the same rookie 2+ Thrower:
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3-6. Accurate

    A 3+ Thrower Short Pass (-1): Examples: Dark Elf, Renegades, Orc
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3. Inaccurate
    4-6. Accurate

    A 3+ Thrower Long Pass (-2):
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3. Wildly Inaccurate
    4. Inaccurate
    5-6. Accurate

    A 4+ Thrower Short Pass (-1): Examples: Dwarf, Undead
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3-4. Inaccurate
    5-6. Accurate

    A 4+ Thrower Long Pass (-2):
    1. Fumble
    2. Wildly Inaccurate
    3. Wildly Inaccurate
    4-5. Inaccurate
    6. Accurate

    Current AG4 passing:
    Short Pass +0
    1. Fumble
    2. Inaccurate
    3-6. Accurate

    Long Pass -1
    1-2. Fumble
    3. Inaccurate
    4-6. Accurate

    The difference now for the Wood Elf Thrower would be that there is less chance of a fumble on Long Passes but they will throw it wildly inaccurate instead of inaccurate. Accurate passes are exactly the same.

    The other change is that it isn't possible to build a dedicated Thrower who can Long Bomb on a 3+ and Long Pass on a 2+. (Strong Arm is now only for Throw Team Mate)

    So yes it is a bit worse, but not massively so and it's also worse for all the teams.

    My prediction is that most will move on, some will go back but not a huge amount. We will see AG4 teams actually buy Throwers (Skaven and the Elves), you will still be able to do AG4 nonsense it's just a bit harder and they can all still catch a hand off on a 2+. Wood Elves will drop a bit but still be Tier 1. Having to position your Throwers to go in to recover a loose ball is no different from the lower agility teams having to do the same with their best player for the job. Even if you have to use a AG5 Lineman you are still quick passing on a 4+ which is a 50% success or 75% success if you use a reroll. The fact it's hampering SPP completion farming and making passing teams actually consider buying passers I'd say it's done the designed job pretty well.

    It's harder to intercept the ball now which is a pretty big change, AG 2+ players require a 5+, 3+ (22%) compared to 55% before to intercept an accurate pass. Though I'm still of the opinion to never pass over an opponent unless you are desperate. Before anyone could intercept with a roll of a 6 (16.67%), now it's AG 3+ (6+ 4+) (8.33%), AG 4+ (6+ 5+) (5.56%) and AG 5+ (6+ 6+) (2.78%) assuming I've done the numbers correctly.

    Ultimately the proof will be in the pudding and we will see how things shake out. I rambled a bit here so hopefully all the above makes sense.

    Finally though I feel this was a missed opportunity to actually introduce a passing side to the game and combat stalling. That involved tackling a structure of the game that's been left totally untouched. I'll have a future article on this at some point down the line...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  16. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    If you roll a natural 1 for any pass then it's a fumble; this is the only way to fumble (unless you have no PA stat/ability then it's an automatic fumble).

    If you're making a quick pass with PA 2+ and you roll a 2 then it's successful, if you were being marked by an opposing player then that's a -1 modifier making it 1 then that's wildly inaccurate and could deviate behind you (I guess giving it flavour, you could say that the marking player was trying to sack you and you panicked just throwing it anywhere). Even if you had 4 players marking you and rolled a 2 taking it below zero it would still be wildly inaccurate and not a fumble.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  17. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    One thing I haven't seen clarified for passing is when you have a player with PA 1+, which is the maximum level allowed for the stat. I would assume that a modified one would be accurate for that player, otherwise what would be the point of buffing it to that level? This would contradict the general statement that a modified 1 is always wildly inaccurate though, so needs to be clarified.
     
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  18. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    Sorry for ranting. I’ll not miss the vanity passes as much as the ability to move the ball up the field with my AG4 players, whether as desperate Offense, or for a surprising Defensive TD. After the release, or on BB3, I’ll get that slammed in my face every time a quick pass would have saved the day (which is one or more time per game, as far as I’m concerned). I’ll certainly move on, but at the moment, I’m still not excited about the changes to my preferred races (elves, in general).

    @Coach : in your first example, there’s no room for an Innacurate pass? It is either Fumble (1), Wild (2 or 3) or Accurate (4-6). It doesn’t make any sense. I know that’s what the rules imply, but it’s just crazy stupid that a skilled Thrower can only be a hero or a total loser, nothing in between.
     
  19. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    @patbou73 yeah I agree that not having room for an inaccurate seems daft, but the passing rules have always been a bit odd, (rolling for interception before the pass for example). Sometimes game balance and clarity of rules take preference over reality. Doing Long Bombs in the current rules for an un-skiled AG4 players is 50 50 between fumbling and accurate which is equally as daft but where's the outrage about that!

    Sometimes professional athletes just plain mess things up wildly (the shot at goal that goes out for a throw in for example). Defensive pressure against a quarterback can often make a pass go awry. The NFL would call this either a fumble or a deflection though which doesn't tally up with how the new throwing rules use those terms.

    Blood Bowl throwing rules have always tried to make a dedicated passer better than someone with high agility, hence why some teams with high agility just plain ignore the Thrower position currently.

    One tweak I would make would be to make one of the passing skills also double up to work like the Kick skill, except for Wildly Inaccurate throws. I'm not sure which skill you'd put this on, or if it will make difference, if a pass messes up it's typically bad regardless most of the time. Though as someone who shuns passing as much as possible anyway (I'd rather hand off) in the current rules I can't see this changing much for me. The risks of passing haven't been mitigated so I'd still advise against it and use player positioning as much as possible.

    I do feel that the possibility of chucking the ball 6 squares backwards has come as a big system shock, though how many passes will it really affect. I'd theorise that most passes that are attempted at quick passes anyway:

    AG 2+ Quick Pass:
    1. Fumble
    2. 2-6 Accurate

    AG 3+ Quick Pass:
    1. Fumble
    2. Inaccurate
    3-6. Accurate

    AG 4+ Quick Pass:
    1. Fumble
    2-3. Inaccurate
    4-6. Accurate

    AG 5+ Quick Pass:
    1. Fumble
    2-4. Inaccurate
    5-6. Accurate

    So as you can see adding Quick Passes into the mix, they don't give anyone a Wildly Inaccurate unless they are being marked. All Elves can do quick passes fairly well (especially with a reroll) and if you mix in a handful of Diving Catch they aren't exactly crippled. I still maintain you can get by with dodges and hand offs anyway due to my anti passing play style. It's the slower less agile teams that are going to be hurt more who have no access to a good passer who have to score in a few turns that are hurt more than Elven teams. Wood Elves will adapt far easier and have needed bringing back in line anyway.

    If not these changes to do that, think how would you have nerfed Wood Elves instead?

    The players who should be complaining are the Orc coaches.
     
  20. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    @patbou73 but in that example that only happens if the modified roll ends up being a 1, on any other result it's an accurate pass.