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Blood Bowl 2020 Rulebook Leak

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Coach, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    You could also get hold of Fumblerooksi and put the ball on the floor for a team mate to pick up which again benefits fast and agile teams who have lots of team mates who can both pick it up easily and also move it a decent distance. The tools are there, they are just different!

    Unlike when my beloved Chaos Dwarfs had their reroll price put up not once but twice and also got dunked by the hard nerf to Stand Firm. Bull Centaurs have now also been hit by the change to Break Tackle on top of that. I'd also imagine that the Hobgoblins are going to get given a PA of 4+ which would be another nerf and they weren't as good as Undead or Wood Elves before any of those numerous changes! I'd rather they had been left alone that been given mutation access which I neither wanted nor liked and teams just used it to get Claw anyway.

    Not sure why Break Tackle +1 was cut off at ST4 rather than ST3. I'm guessing Lizardmen was probably the reasoning behind it but I can't see how it was an issue for all the other ST4 players.
     
  2. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    @Coach : I’ve always played Wood Elves with a dedicated Thrower. I think I’ll need two now on Defense to have a reliable way of getting the ball to safety if I manage to steal it from opponent. Hands off are enough in a perfect world, but it’s Blood Bowl. ;)

    I feel bad for all races that got nerfed. Animosity on Orcs is terrible, but it’s a 1 in 6 chance of failing that check. PA 4+ elves will now fail Quick Passes 9 in 36 with reroll, while it was 1 in 36 before. They badly needed the nerf, they were too good, we’re on the same page there. But 9 times more likely to fail is not a small nerf. They could have just replace the range modifiers with the new ones (3+ to Quick Pass with AG4) instead of adding the new PA stats, and remove SPP for Quick Passes (only on Short, Long and Bomb). That would have nerfed elves (4 times more likely to fail a Quick Pass with RR is no small nerf, IMHO), and remove the vanity pass non sense that was all too common. You want to encourage Coach to use dedicated Thrower? Grant rookie Throwers an Extraordinary Skill (now traits) that give them +1 to throw the ball. You get the same result as the new PA for almost all races, with 90% less changes to the rules. Now, a player who gets an Agility upgrade from leveling up won’t even feel a benefit when it comes to passing the ball. Makes no sense.

    They’ve used the nuclear option to tackle a problem that was very specific to some teams (Wildly Innacurate? Really???). That comment from Jimmy Fantastic about Undead still rings in my head. Gee, I’ve lost to Chaos with a Warrior throwing the ball to a Beastman often enough to recall that as not such a rare occurrence, particularly when the ball is dropped while they defend. I never felt this had to be nerfed. But they did.

    I think they’ve went too far, the changes affect all teams to some degree (most not small), and that was not needed. Scoring TDs in 2-3-4 turns with any teams will be more difficult. I doubt this will make the game more interesting (less Touchdowns). Drawing a game 1-1 is not fun, and I think it will happen more often as it will be more difficult to do the classic 2-1 grind. Forcing opponent to score fast to then score yourself in first half, and then stall the whole second half has been the main strategy for so long. With the new edition, scoring the equalizer during the first half will be a lot harder (more so if people start prioritizing the Kick skill).

    Did Elves needed to be nerfed : yes. Did they go too far in the changes : yes. Will the game suffer from them : I’m certain, and I say that considering all the different races, not just elves.
     
  3. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Couple more things:

    Hail Mary Pass seems to be affected by Tackle Zones now. Before you could HMP from the middle of a scrum and it was just a 2+ roll, but now it's much more likely to be a fumble or wildly inaccurate.

    Kick Team mate appears to have been simplified compared to the rules for it in the Ogre Spike magazine. It's now a second Throw Team Mate action that you can make in a turn, but the launched player is removed from play if you fumble.

    Also Swoop has been nerfed, as the player now scatters D3 squares using the throw-in template instead of scattering three times using it. Additionally it no longer gives +1 to landing.
     
  4. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    Wasn't landing always 1 point harder than dodging (with the -1 modifier) anyway, so now it'll still be the same as it was using the new AG stat (with Swoop, but actually easier to land than it was without it).

    Edit: But then isn't the landing affected by the throw now instead. Too much to remember! :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  5. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    not sure how you can say they are no worse at passing than before, when now any dark elf can eg quick pass on a 2 plus, new rules it will be at best a 3 plus on the runner, and eg a 5 plus on a witch. That is categorically much worse than now!

    The jumping over prone players may be interesting.
     
  6. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Wonder what the thinking was behind giving Chaos the choice of an Ogre. Back in the day nearly every team could have the choice of an Ogre or another Big Guy. Everyone always took the Ogre so changes were made to remove the Ogre from a lot of teams to bring a bit more diversity. Obviously now they also get the choice of a Troll as well, but will most people just go for the Ogre again as it is the most reliable option.
     
  7. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Dodging currently has a +1 modifier, which will be removed in BB2020, because the AG stat is changed to become the minimum roll you need to pass an unmodified agility test.

    Landing currently is an unmodified AG roll, but with a +1 if you have the swoop skill. That modifier has been removed in BB2020 and I believe there are negative modifiers for landing if the throw is not accurate.
     
  8. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    Yes but if they'd left the +1 for Swoop it would've meant a basic landing for an AG 3+ player would've been a 2 which surely would be too easy so that's why the slight nerf, although if anything it's the ordinary landing that got a boost (ignoring the new negative modifiers, of course, which likely balance that out somewhat). It's hard to see what else they could've done with Swoop with changing the AG system, but the d3 movement instead of a guaranteed 3 is a shame. Guess at least you still can't scatter backwards with it.
     
  9. Devil Inside

    Devil Inside New Member

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    Would it be too cynical of me to suggest it might be to try and sell more Ogre models (and Rat Ogre models for that matter while we're on) :D
     
  10. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Its pretty simple actually. If you look at passing capability across the teams, they fall into about the same level of passing capability as before relative to other teams. Elves are still going to be better at random throws than most teams; they just aren't going to be godly at it like before. And as stated, the ability to hurdle downed players is going to open up their short passing game.
     
  11. BallztotheWalla

    BallztotheWalla Active Member

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    There was no internet when the hate for dwarfs started, it’s as old as the team itself and it’s got nothing to do with the team being good, it was and still is a mediocre team, but with having to actually play against a team that was boring as hell when you where lucky to get a game in once a month and then getting stalled to a 1-1 draw over 2 hours against a team that never had a chance to win but is always just playing not to lose.
    Since this is a family friendly site I won’t go in to detail about how the typical dwarf player looked and smelled in a hobby store in the early 90’s but it wasn’t pleasant.
     
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  12. BallztotheWalla

    BallztotheWalla Active Member

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    Don’t know what orc coaches are complaining about, you got +Ma for 5k and sure a thrower was fine before because of sh, just give a line orc sh and you never have to worry about animosity not that you really needed to otherwise.
    You only ever hand of to get the spp on the right orc anyway.

    i agree that its bad game design since the thrower is now beyond unplayable but not that I will matter a lot
     
  13. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    I agree with you. Orc Thrower rarely passed the ball anyway, and was actually the ball carrier most of the time. Animosity doesn't make him lose the ability to pass or hand-off, but it will kick in 1 in 6, and prevent that play. One can still play with the Thrower, or skip it and train a Lineman with Sure Hands for a cheaper price (and lower TV). ST4 Blockers with MA5 is a huge boost, as the cage can now move more freely. They're no longer a such a slow team, and this is really in their favor.
     
  14. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I don't see a 1 in 6 animosity roll as beyond unplayable. If anything it just makes him as bad as a vampire or like rolling for dauntless on a catcher etc. Plenty of players have to risk a little too so something, it's not terrible.
     
  15. dissatisfiedcow

    dissatisfiedcow Member

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    While I'm also somewhat confused by the new passing rules (see below), I'm extra confused why this remark keeps cropping up: where does the idea come from that the "deviate" for wildly inaccurate passes would be the same as the "roll both a D8 and a D6 to determine deviation, as described on page 25." for kicks? Did I miss this crucial page in the leaks?
    The mentioned page 25 could just state that "deviate" means moving the ball in a random (D8) direction and the D6 distance is only in effect for a kick. In this case, the difference between a wildly inaccurate pass and a fumble would not be the distance, but the fact that a fumble is an automatic turnover: a wildly inaccurate pass could be caught by a teammate and thereby not cause a turnover.

    What I'm more confused about, is the order of operations for "test for accuracy". Most examples I've seen (and what I would assume is the intended way of playing) assume that the natural 1 takes precedence over the wildly inaccurate pass. However, the leaked rules are not at all clear on this. In fact (as written) the fumble would only be checked for when the pass is neither successful, nor a 1 (let's assume for now wildly inaccurate passes also apply to rolls modified to below a 1).
    This would mean that a PA2+ player would never fumble the ball, ever. Only PA3+ or worse players could fail the pass while not having the roll modified to a 1 (e.g. a PA3+, rolling a 2 on a Quick Pass), meaning that only they could ever fumble the ball.
    Ofcourse, this argument immediately falls flat, because then an inaccurate pass result would always be checked before (and thereby prevent) a wildly inaccurate pass. So in the end: GW, please write clearer rules :'(
     
  16. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Page 25 of the new rulebook defines what Deviate means (D8 direction and D6 distance). So anytime the word "Deviate" is used, it refers to that.

    A natural 1 is always a fumble regardless of anything else. That seems clear to me. The only confusion that I see is regarding a modified 1 for a player with PA 1+. Common sense would dictate that a modified 1 would be seen as Accurate for a player with that passing Stat, otherwise there would never be any point in upgrading a player from PA 2+ to PA 1+, but the way it is written it isn't clear that having PA 1+ would take precedence over a modified 1 making the pass wildly inaccurate.
     
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  17. dissatisfiedcow

    dissatisfiedcow Member

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    The only sensible result of rolling a 2 on a Short Pass with a PA 1+ player... is to place two balls: one in the target square because the test is passes, and one that deviates from the passing player because the pass is wildly inaccurate :p

    Other interpretation: wildly inaccurate states it "deviates [...] before landing", while accurate states it "will land in the target square". So, first it deviates, and then it still lands in the target square ;)
     
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  18. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Playing with woodies I was checking what changes could affect the team besides the already mentioned decreased passing ability for anybody other than the thrower.
    Did anyone notice that now leaping into cages is 4+ instead of 3+? (unless someone really load the cage, which could also lead to 5+ or 6+, although it would have other disadvantages ...)
     
  19. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    Yeah. I saw that and grumbled about it a few pages ago. Also, Catcher loses Sprint, gets -2 to pass, but costs the same 90k as before.

    Losing Sprint means a rookie Catcher can no longer score in one turn (needs 3 chain pushes instead of 2), while Humans can now pass as well as Woodies, and can score one turners right from the start with Halfling and Ogre.

    Note also that Throwers and Wardancers are +5K each.
     
  20. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Jervis (the original game designer) has always said that Humans were meant to be one of the best teams. I still don't think they will be but this gives them a much needed boost.

    Unless I'm mistaken you've already admitted Wood Elves needed bringing back in line. Needing 3 chain pushes instead of 2 doesn't mean you can longer score in one turn considering it's possible to do with a movement 6 player!

    There's no reason that a Human can't pass as well as a Woodelf, assuming it's something they are trained in. The Wood Elf Thrower can move further, dodge out of trouble easier and with a reroll pick up or receive a hand off easier. Throwing something and being agile are different skillsets. It's just as Blood Bowl coaches we have over 25 years of the rules being too simple to have been able to reflect this.

    I also think Leap was unfairly much better against the teams that already struggled the most. Making it a bit harder isn't that big a deal in the scheme of things, especially when it was mostly used by probably the best race in the game.
     
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