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Blood Bowl 2020 Rulebook Leak

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Coach, Aug 2, 2020.

  1. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Well ... catchers can still score in 1 turn, its just more difficult.
    That won't affect woodies nearly as much as being suddenly unable to leap into cages ...
     
  2. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Unless I'm mistaken the Leap into 3 tackle zones would be 4+, which is 50% chance of success, or 75% with a reroll. That's still far better than anyone bar a non Stunty player can do! They also have lots of fast and agile team mates who can recover the ball better than most other teams. I'm sure they will be fine!
     
  3. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    "best race in the game" ... I must be a really bad coach, I remember rerolling to underworld in BC1 as my woodies were falling to pieces ...
    True, they have won much, but they are also the most fragile race in the game, that must account for something ...
    For what it's worth I've heard good players staying that "chaos is the most effective race", or "chorfs are op"
     
  4. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Comparing races to each other varies at different tv levels. Woodies are one of the best low - mid tv races, but struggle more at high tv due to other races stacking multiple players with MB + Tackle, Dirty Player, etc.

    I would also say that several other teams such as Skaven, Goblins and Underworld are more fragile than them due to having AG 3 players that can’t dodge away as easily. Norse and Amazons are certainly more fragile than Wood Elves at mid - high tv too.
     
  5. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    It is also worth noting that redrafting does push the game in the direction of lower-mid team values. Ultimately the perpetual ladder leagues we see online in particular are the outlier to how the game was designed to be played.
     
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  6. notorious noob

    notorious noob Well-Known Member

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    The best race by a longshot was lizardman, but yes woodies were definitely one of the teams that needed a nerf. However They ate like a quadruple whammy here and I am quite confident that it will be too much. You go from a 11% to a 25% failchance on your leap (more than doubled) and your oneturns are much harder. Which will probably end up meaning that you dont have enough extra 'power' to play with to make up for how flimsy your team is.
     
  7. patbou73

    patbou73 Active Member

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    Fully agree with @notorious noob . They needed the nerf, but so did others (Dwarves, Lizardmen). The new rules hit them really hard. Doubling failure to leap, nine times more likely to fail a quick pass with any Elf who’s not a Thrower, forcing Catcher to spend a skill to take Sprint, new higher prices on positionals, Wildly Inaccurate rules, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised to see their win rate fall below or near 50%.

    Skaven also suffer from the ability to steal the ball on Defense, make a quick pass and run away with it. Of all the rules and nerfs, this is the change that will hurt the most Elves (and Skaven). They lack the stats to cage and protect the ball if it’s close to the big melee. Not being able to send it away means they’ll take more hit, and suffer more CAS. Other teams can only benefit from this, because they’ll get to score more SPPs on us (CAS), while we can no longer farm some with vanity passes. And about these: no, it’s not all fine to consider they can pass with 75% success with a reroll, while they had 83% before without a reroll. Rerolls are not cheaper than before, and we don’t get more. If anything, we have less because positionals are more expensive. The nerf went too far, AG teams will struggle, that’s for sure.

    And of all the races, they’re the less likely to benefit from the random skills level up system. They’re too expensive to risk a random useless skill. If others can abuse from that system, it will be at the expense of fragile and expensive players.
     
  8. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

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    We will see how much fragile teams relied on one turning now yeah.

    Potentially a massive nerf to rats more so than welves I think.
     
  9. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I think a big part of the problem with the online perpetual leagues was that they had far too much money. Spiralling Expenses was introduced to lower overall team values, however the amount that was actually implemented was too conservative to actually achieve was it was supposed to do. I've not compared Spiralling Expenses to the new Expensive Mistakes table, has anyone had a look?

    I also think that different coaches perceptions on these changes will differ based on which format they tend to play. An advantage that not having all the teams in the first rulebook is that they will be able to tweak stuff in a supplement when they add more teams back in.

    I always have believed that the NAF should have been doing seasons already and taking all the data from NAF, Fumble and BB2 to change things year on year. I'd love to see this introduced going forward, nerfing the teams that are performing the best and boosting the worst and also less popular teams (which could also see more miniatures sold too).
     
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  10. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Break Tackle change will probably impact Lizardmen more than any other team. Chaos Dwarf Bull Centaurs and Ogres on the Ogre team are the main other players affected, but it’s huge for Lizards as it takes away a lot of their mobility. The sauri are also more expensive, so they have taken quite a big nerf too.
     
  11. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Well, never played at really high TV, but at mid TV I had no problems in keeping my UW team healthy ... not so with woodies.
    I guess it could depend on having killers which can help keep the opponent in check and the numbers even, and I guess that the same can be said for Norse.
    Not sure about Amazons, but the spam dodge could help them too, although with the increase of tackle at high TV they may be in trouble.
     
  12. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    about time! Lizards imo are way too strong under the current rules. It is only once the Claw teams gain a load of skills that they get reined in. It is noticeable (to me at least) that most new leagues see lizards doing exceptionally well in the first few seasons.
    As for wood elves, again, really really strong under the current rules. Yes they lose players, but hey Eldril and a wizard, and rookie dancers are still great.

    @Coach the online game has a rule where any bank above 150 adds to your TV, not sure if that is what you mean. Spiralling Expenses does kick in, and it is a pain for more fragile teams as you will often lose players, and not gain any cash at higher TV. Has less effect on the more resilient teams, sadly..

    @Silfuin Norse at high TV (1800 plus?) don't really work, you can't keep up with the damage done to your team. Trust me I've been there in Big Crunch 2 over several seasons. Zons are the same to my knowledge but never actually played them myself as they are too dull:). Woodies at least can fairly reliably disengage.

    I think redrafting will be the key to how things shake out in the online perpetual leagues. And to be honest I think those need a change anyway as they are getting stale to me.

    Oh and the new passing rule is a huge nerf to elves, rats etc under the current meta. If you do manage to crack that horrible dwarf cage, and get a half decent scatter, and make the 4 plus pick up and dodge away, now what lol...
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
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  13. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    The idea behind spiralling expenses was that at higher Team Values you shouldn't have been able to build up a treasury. Unfortunately the amounts weren't able to be playtested in a perpetual online league and they never got adjusted. This meant that some teams were able to build up money whilst others couldn't. As the new Expensive Mistakes rule actually targets the treasury it should hopefully be more even, though more fragile teams will have to spend more replacing players...

    For your last point, you hand it off to a team mate, or you Fumblerooski it onto the ground for them to pick up. If you're against a team slower than you then you can try the classic throw it down the pitch to run after it punt, but this is going to be riskier than before. I think it's probably a good change across the board as most players from all teams are going to be affected by that. Might mean more drives where teams fight over the ball for a few turns.
     
  14. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    @Ravers the argument that Eldril and Wiz are available does not mean that the team is not fragile, in fact it supports the opposite in that you state as an advantage something which can be obtained only if you're the underdog, usually by having lost players.
    Besides Eldril and Wizard are not exclusive to woodies.

    Anyway I don't mean to argue about effectivity at high TV since as already said I've never been there ... with woodies.
    There is plenty of people who has won with them, so they're clearly effective

    However, the fact that I managed to get to high TV and reach division 2 in OCC fairly easily with orcs (then I quit, who knows how I would have fared there), whereas with woodies in BC1 I couldn't keep my team from disintegrating and whenever I managed to get promoted in Nordland or Reikland I got relegated immediately makes me wonder if the definition of "best race" is just lacking ...
    I mean, the concept that a team is good if it works well when you manage to get it to high tv may be weighted by how easy it is to get there ...
     
  15. dissatisfiedcow

    dissatisfiedcow Member

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    Couldn't agree more with you here: I've heard that high TV Nurgle are really good, but I've been trying for quite a while now and the slog to get to high TV is really demoralizing.

    However, this is not the case with wood elves: their starting roster can (easily) win games after having lost half their team, or with 4 journeymen in the next match. The fact that they break easily does not seem to be enough to stop them from winning.

    I've recently been drawn back into blood bowl by watching the Sage play. He plays a wood elf team that has been in the top divisions of OCC since the start. Yes, this team was at half strength for ages. And still he kept winning games. In a recent game against Nurgle, 4 elves were CASed in turn 1 and he still managed a draw.

    As far as I'm concerned, if the summed effect of the new rules means that wood elves go from 55% to 51% win rate (or whatever the actual rates are) then I consider that a win for the game as a whole. Fragile teams will always have to be more careful to stay alive over the course of a league. But in the end "best race" is based on how many games they've won, not by how many of their starting players are still alive.
     
  16. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Correction: how many games they have won over the number of games played.
    That however depends heavily on what games do you take into account.
    Are we speaking of perpetual league games?
    COL?
    All games or only games in the top divisions/higher COL positions?

    I know that COL may differ much from perpetual leagues in teams effectivity, but as the matches there are readily available on Goblin Spy I have tried to crunch some numbers:
    In the first 200 teams there are 21 Chaos, 20 ChaosDwarf, 16 DarkElf ... Woodies have just 7 teams in the first 200 coaches, behind Amazons and Norse who have respectively 9 and 8.

    Counting only these 200 teams the woodies percentage of won games over games played is absurdly high at 72%.
    However, also ProElf have the same percentage and Amazons are at 67%, like Skaven and ... Ogre ???
    Could depend on the fact that these coaches are good at what they do, and more "average" coaches don't make it?
    If we do some query and get the highest 200 woodies so we can take into account also "not so good" coaches the W/GP percentage drops to 55%, which is what you mentioned.
    However Skaven have 56% this way.
    if we take into accout all Woodie teams (568) win rate drops to 43% and Skaven (704 teams) drop to 44%

    As I already acknowledged the race is great, and in the hands of top coaches it can win big time, and you could be right that it needed a nerf, but to me "best race" means a different thing.
    Woodies are like a racing car or bike which just a handful can drive, and the others fail miserably.
    It reminds me of Ducati in 2007, when Casey Stoner won nearly every race, but his team mate got on the podium only once with the same bike.

    I'd like to have statistics made on perpetual leagues, which is the environment in which I like to play BB, but I don't have access to the data.
     
  17. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    This makes a lot of sense to me - teams like woodies and skaven can excel in the hands of a coach who knows how to make the most of them, but tend to be much less effective when a less experienced coach uses them. To me that is good team design all the same!

    I think it is too early to tell whether the nerfs will hit some teams harder than others. People will try new builds and new strategies, so we need to see how that shakes out first. I think that a skill like fumblerooskie is flying under the radar, because it adds a completely new way to transfer the ball around the pitch, that will be most effectively used by the teams with the fastest players (guess which those teams are ;)). Remember that there is no limit to the number of times you can use the skill in a turn, if you have multiple players with it, in addition to being able to do a pass and hand-off as normal.

    Woodies can either use throwers, or give it as a double to catchers in order to have increased options for moving the ball around either on offence or defence. Positioning of the fumblerooskie players will be important and you could even see several players with Sure Hands in order to make ball pick-ups and recoveries more reliable. Opponents will not be able to simply double mark receivers in order to make the catch harder, because they will be able to dodge out and pick the ball up off the floor where it was dropped for them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  18. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    We've not really looked at or talked about the changes to the bashing side of Blood Bowl in this thread. These changes will also have an impact across the board.

    Claw no longer stacks with Mighty Blow, Piling On has become Pile Driver and now means you are doing a foul action and could potentially get sent off. (I must admit I've lost track of what version of Piling On is actually current across tabletop, Blood Bowl 2 and Fumble.)

    This should change the way quite a few players develop, which will have an impact on player turnover. I expect to see a sharp drop off in teams selecting Piling On (Pile Driver), especially those who won't be able to get cheaper bribes and / or don't have cheap expendable players. Even those players who do have it will use it more judiciously.

    Then there is the enigma of a skill that is Defensive. I've no idea how popular or effective this will be and for me I think it's the hardest of the new sills to evaluate. I remember when Wrestle was added and it took a while for it's effectiveness to become clear, at first nearly everyone was ignoring it in favour of Block. I can certainly see it going along with Block, Dodge, Side Step in some builds, perhaps at the expense of Diving Tackle which I never really saw that much to start with.
     
  19. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree with both of you.
     
  20. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Defensive should definitely have an impact, especially for AV 8 elves. A blitzer with Blodge, SS and Defensive should be very effective in a lot of situations against bash teams. I like skills that reward good positioning.
     
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