Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Coach, Aug 2, 2020.
I will never understand the interest of being able to reroll into a dubskull with your killer
Well both skills could be used on a 2D roll right? the important thing is that killers are going to block better now, guys with primary ST skills access only specially.
Also, It seems you could use both skills on a negative 2D roll right? This could lead to some interesting results
Brawler on a dwarf lineman seems rather underwhelming.
If the opponent doesn't have block you don't use it.
If he does have block and the other dice is a pow or stumbles you don't use it.
If the other dice is a skull it is a 1 in 6 chance of a turnover.
So it only gets used when the other dice is a push or BD and the opponent doesn't have block.
And the chance of rolling a pow or stumbles on that dice is 1 in 3.
So against a block player only 1 in every 20 blocks will be turned into a knockdown by brawler
Unless the opponent is putting block players on the LoS it will only do something around once a season.
Guard , MB and Stand firm are all better than it.
You can only reroll a dice once.
So you can't use brawler and then use pro.
The current pro skill says that you can't reroll the die roll if pro fails you can only reroll the pro roll.
If that is the case with the new pro skill you can't use pro and then brawler either.
Sure thing, I mean a 2D roll using pro on one dice and brawler on the other one
You can’t use Pro to re-roll one of the Block dice. It can only be used to re-roll everything that was rolled.
Not any more, looks like the new Pro only rerolls one dice and not the entire "dice pool".
It's not clear if you can use Brawler on one dice and Pro on the other. I can't find anything that says you can't though... Reroll rules are on leaked page 24.
Ah I did read that, but it didn’t register by the looks of it! I imagine that you can use both brawler and pro then, if they each re-roll a separate die.
The new pro could be really interesting for dancers.
It was one of their later choices before, now maybe you could want it sooner ...
Why pro on a wardancer?
Generally you would start with tackle, strip ball, side step. I was then thinking about fend for PO protection and MB on a double. Juggernaut on a double also looked kinda fun for uphill strip attempts, and the occasional moving of a SF dude.
Pro is for rerolling stuff that is not a turnover, e.g. bloodlust on vamps or a push on a block. Or on players with loner.
Right now on a wardancer would get tackle, sidestep and possibly strip ball (depending on how much sure hands there is around) and then start looking at doubles and stats.
Pro was already on dancer skill list after all those you mentioned, helps with leaps and possibly to reroll those strip ball and surf attempts.
Now leap in normal cages is 4+, pro is 3+, thus overall probability is the same, but the most important difference is that now pro let's you reroll just one die on 2D blocks.
That seems bad, but think of it: in case you attempt an uphill -2D block you can reroll the eventual skull keeping the other die, effectively almost transforming the roll in a 1D block ... provided you make the Pro roll.
Rerolling a failed uphill 2D block attempt before had a chance of resulting in a skull of 11/36, now assuming you didn't roll double skull, rerolling the "bad" die result in a skull just 1/6.
Increased chance of making the Pro roll, combined with highly diminished chance of getting a skull seems nice.
Overall probability to get at least a push on uphill -2D with Pro now is almost equal to reroll (including probability to fail the pro roll): with reroll it's around 69%, with pro was around 56.5% before and is around 64% now, and if you really need that roll you can eventually use the team reroll on the pro roll increasing the overall probability to around 70.5%.
Hope I made the calculations right, correct me if I'm wrong.
Also now if you make a 2D block and result is ok-ish but not what you desired you can always attempt to reroll the "bad" die with Pro: you don't risk anything, unlike before.
That's a huge plus in my book.
I think the viability of Pro has increased much with this change.
Fully agree with @Silfuin. After Strip Ball, Side Step and Tackle, the new Pro skill is one of the best choice for a Wardancer.
Equally Pro on eg a chorf mighty blow claw blocker becomes better.
Crazy how many buffs Wood Elves got, Pro, Fumblerooski, Defensive. Wardancer unchanged, kept the Treeman!
Hmmm ... I don't know if you mean that all previous complaining was ... "premature" or that what I said is garbage ...
I don’t particularly consider Pro a buff when it’s only good as the 4th skill on a Wardancer. Most die before getting there.
Some think Fumblerooskie is an awesome new skill, but I think quite the contrary. The embedded MA cost, for both carrier and receiver, is impressive (-1 square on carrier vs +3 square for a quick pass ; if receiver backtracks 4 squares to get it, he’s back to square one with MA 8). The required investment is also too much, IMHO. It’s a secondary skill for Catcher and Wardancer (+40k TV), primary only for Thrower who has better to do than drop the ball in it’s path. Plus, Sure Hands is required to get the reroll Catch was already providing.
Fumblerooskie will be a good skill for other teams, but not for Woodies. I can see an Orc Thrower taking this skill to bypass animosity. Considering no Orc will ever take Catch anyway, there’s no lost ressource there. Dwarf Runners may also make good use of this skill. Because Woodies already have Pass and Catch on the players likely to Drop and Pick Up the ball, I’m pretty sure they’ll quickly realise another skill would have been better than Fumblerooskie and Sure Hands.
Defensive has yet to prove it’s good. Of course I haven’t tested it yet. But I think I’ll prefer to invest in Guard (secondary skill) than Defensive (primary for Elves). Guard, by providing an assist, effectively negates an opposing Guard during opponent’s turn. But it’s useful 100% of the game (during my turn to set up 2D blocks and blitz). Defensive is ONLY good 50% of the game (during opponent’s turns), ONLY IF opponent has Guards to negate, and ONLY IF you have enough to cover all angles. That’s a very conditional skill to me, akin to Pass Block (but not as worse). Consider it also comes in an environment where you no longer have to roll doubles to get Guard, an unconditional skill.
I can see some elves learning that skill, after Guard, Block, Dodge and maybe even Side Step. These will be awesome players. But of course, they’ll be level 5 or 6.
Treeman is good, I like it. But Woodies still have no team mates to throw to make use of the tree’s Strong Arm and Throw Team Mate skills (these are figured in the 120k, we pay for skills we can’t use). Humans struck a deal with Halflings to make one turn TD readily available, while Woodies lost Sprint on Catchers. Wow.
The trade between what you consider buffs (but that are not, IMHO) and how badly they’ve been nerfed is far from fair. Gee, 95% of the team now has a -2 penalty to pass the ball, Catchers have lost Sprint but are priced the same, and a full Wood Elf team is +20k TV compared to current system (2 Wardancers and 2 Throwers at +5K each ; and yes, you’ll need 2 Throwers now). I don’t mind much the initial investment to buy these positionals. But I do mind the REPETITIVE 20k that I’ll lose on inducements, or that my opponent will get as a bonus... EACH AND EVERY games!!!
And that’s without considering the new rules for Wildly Innacurate passes. These apply to all teams, but you have to agree that it’s the teams that play the ball game that will suffer from it. Cagers and Runners won’t.
Nope, they still got nerfed pretty hard, and harder than they deserved.
While I agree with most other parts of the post, I disagree with this evaluation of Defensive. I agree that in many cases it's probably better to choose Guard before Defensive, because it's generally better to support your own play than countering your opponent's play. However, for Wood Elves, I can see great opportunity for a Linemen with Guard and Defensive: with AG2+ they can easily reposition and lend the support that your Wardancer may need while at the same time negating the opposing support.
Other than that, I imagine choosing Defensive really depends on the meta in your league. Yes, Defensive is useless when you're not facing Guard, but Tackle is useless when you're not facing Dodge and almost all developed teams I've seen have at least one Tackle player.
I also expect Defensive to be a lot more valuable on high strength teams than on elves, because then you don't also need Guard to get those juicy 2D blocks. Black Orcs and Lizardmen will probably love Defensive when they're facing Dwarves
[Edit: to be fair, I cannot find the actual leak for Defensive, so if it's only in effect on the opponent's turn, then a lot of the arguments above lose their merit. In that case, I also struggle to find uses for it, as the opponent has a lot more opportunity to not be near the Defensive player.]
My previous post was in jest, Wood Elves did get nerfed a bit overall and it's what they deserved and needed (in my opinion). They have benefited in some ways at the same time, so it's not all doom and gloom. Depending on the team values and playing environment I still expect them to be a pretty strong team.
I can’t upload a screenshot from my iPad, but here’s the full description of the new Defensive skill, page 75 :
« During you opponent’s team turn (but not during your own team turn), any opposition players being Marked by this player cannot use the Guard skill. »
I admit Guard + Defensive makes an excellent combination to run the ball in a cage, screen or half cage. But since secondary skills are no longer offsprings of lucky doubles, and you can decide the order in which you take the skills, I strongly doubt we will ever see an Elf Lineman with Guard and Defensive, without Block and Dodge. Of these 4 skills, Defensive is certainly the last one to take (if not, a very questionable choice, or very specific league environment), and I’ll pick Side Step first, anytime.
edit : The comparison with Tackle is not good. There’s almost always 1 to 11 dodgers to tackle. And when there is, the skill is good 100% of the game, to actively negate Dodge on a block or blitz, or to passively negate Dodge during opponent’s turn. The same can’t be said of Defensive.
Some coaches may decide to develop their players a bit differently, perhaps going Defensive earlier than Guard on a player. It's less team value and you can get it quicker too. Even more so if you experiment taking random first advancements. This is just a single touchdowns worth of SPP which is relatively easy for an Elf. Get a random skill on one you don't really want then they can become scrimmage fodder, semi useful skills can be utilised with a different development path. This lets you get further down the development track quicker at the trade off against being less optimal. I'm going to be interested to see how people use all these new options.
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