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Chaos Brand New Chaos Team Development Questions

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Mr Suplex, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Hi all. I have some development questions about my Chaos team (a team that will be played over multiple seasons). I went with the standard 4CW and 3RR build, and have since bought my Apothecary. For the rest of this season I will be playing against the following teams:

    Elves
    Orcs
    Undead
    High Elves
    Lizardmen
    Humans
    Necromantic
    Vampire
    Amazon
    Wood Elves

    So I have two questions:

    1) What should I focus on purchasing next? Another Beastman? A Minotaur? A 4th Reroll?

    2) How should I develop my first 2-3 Beastmen?
     
  2. Squall

    Squall Member

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    Personally I'm not a mino guy and only Orcs/Lizards to out strength you there.

    Beastman to buy next I think. You need a block beastman, a sure hands or extra arm one, and maybe a 3rd block one, 4th a wrestle guy I guess. block ones to go killer route, wrestle for the saftey and the surehands/extraarm for carrying block 2nd skill ofc.
     
  3. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Or you could go the dull route, and pick block and guard on every player until one of your beastmen gets +AG, then he gets sure hands and every other beastman gets MB+Claw or Tackle.
     
  4. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I am a big proponent of the boring route, where every first skill for every player is Block. I do like taking SH on my first beastman non-doubles roll, though. If someone else gets Agi later on - great. If not, the SH guy can get Block at level 3 and Extra Arms at level 4, and I have a half-decent ball-carrier anyway. CWs really benefit from Guard - at least the first two. Beastmen should start sprouting MB by the time they get to their 2nd and especially 3rd skill (you don't need your entire team to have it, but 2-3 MB beastmen is good, imo).

    MB > Claw, unless you plan on murdering Morg'N'Thorg. Piling On turns your killer into a super-killer, albeit at the price of constant fouls, so do not pile on in the middle of the other team :) . I generally reserve Piling On for beastmen only - CWs do well with Block, Guard, MB, Claw, and then whatever else you fancy to put on them as the last two skills.
     
  5. 2Dimensional

    2Dimensional New Member

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    I often take extra arms on the third or so beastman to level up (after a couple of block and the like), reason being that, assuming you didn't roll +ag earlier, it gives you a player who can pickup on a 2+, which is definitely handy. Furthermore, if you do roll +ag, then your extra arms beast is suddenly a good receiver, either for desperation pass plays or just as a threat the opponent has to expend manpower to mark.

    Other than that, Block then guard works on most of the beasts and warriors, except Block/MB/Claw if you want a killer, and PO if you want your 180k of tv to get fouled into the dirt. I wouldn't recommend going sure hands until every beast has levelled up and had a chance to roll +ag or doublez for dodge to make a good BC. You might have to burn some rerolls, but it should be manageable.

    As for purchasing, a 12 beast is essential, either for fouling when you're ahead on pitch clearing or for filling in when you're not. Elsewise, I normally don't find Chaos need a 4th reroll to succeed, but it depends on how you play. For minotaurs, the rule of thumb is early or not at all. Later on, they'll be more trouble (and tv) then they're worth without some skills getting them rolling. Check out Remthars Fallen Paladins as an example of this, sorry to single you out Rem but it's the best example I can think of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  6. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    You can also check out my minotaur on the Idiotapolis Dolts (my CC team) as an example of what's colloquially known as "bloat". He may very well get fired before the quarterfinals - the useless cow has accumulated 4 SPP in 12 games (might be 13, not that it matters).

    I generally prefer SH over EA as the first skill because a SH pickup has an 89% success rate, and regardless of what happens, it won't use a team RR. An EA pickup is only 83% successful, unless you invest a team RR (in which case it has a 97% success rate, but now you've used a RR). To me, team RR are a resource, and early on chaos needs them for one singular purpose - to fix "double-red" blocks (skull-skull, skull-BD, BD-BD). You are a strength based team that has to throw blocks to make room, but you have no skills to help with it at all, so that 1/9 2d block fail tends to come up much more often than one would like. This is also the primary reason for spamming Block on everything with a pulse (plus it helps you stay upright when you are on the receiving end of love and care from the other side).

    Hence my first non-doubles skill for a beast is SH - from a blocking point of view, I am no worse off than i was before, but from a RR-saving point of view, I no longer have to worry about spending one on ball pickup under "normal" conditions. That having been said, EA is the clear winner if you happen to roll Pouring Rain, or if you just HAVE to make the pickup, and will invest a team RR into the process. Speaking of which - a team RR for chaos is equivalent to an extra beastmam on the roster... so I generally find 3 RR to be the balance. If you want 4 RR, I would recommend converting an early doubles roll (beastman only) into Leader - it's a 30K discount, and you were gonna field that beastman anyway.

    P.S. Forgot to mention last time, but Chaos Warriors also benefit a lot from Stand Firm, although definitely not before Block and Guard. After that, it's a tactical decision - MB helps your pitch removal and helps the CW level faster, SF makes them a better roadblock and occasionally protects them (people might be more inclined to run away than risk throwing "nothing happens" blocks").
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  7. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Alot of great advice here, thanks.

    So is anyone in favor the Minotaur? I really want a reason to have him at some point, but if he really is that bad I won't bother. I'll get a 12th Beastman first for sure, though.

    On an unrelated note, is the Apothecary bugged in the Cyanide game? When people change a result to simply "Badly Hurt", it seems to actually treat the result as if the player made a successful Regeneration roll, as I often see them on the sideline ready to play after the drive ends. Has anyone else experience this? Is this a known bug?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  8. PaloLV

    PaloLV Member

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    I like the Chaos Mino. Normal roll access to mutations makes them very fearsome. They also divert hits away from your more valuable CW's because the Mino is scary and only AV 8 so people go out of their way to go after them if they can. Losing a CW sucks because they are hard to level up. Losing a Mino isn't nearly as bad as with frenzy and MB built in with horns making 3d blocks generally easy to get they level up much faster. They can also be stuck into spots where you wouldn't want to leave a str 4 CW but a str 5 big guy will be safer and more annoying at the same time.
     
  9. Marni

    Marni New Member

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    If you pick badly hurt on apothicary he is healed. yes.
    I don't know why, but It will happen every time. I guess they couldnt change the mistake, so left it as is.
     
  10. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I believe that is the intended behavior as per the official rules - if either the initial injury or the RR from the use of apothecary is Badly Hurt, and if that result is chosen, the player is returned to the reserves box instead of the casualty box. So for once Cyanide got it right. Another "strange" behavior you may notice is that if a playoff match goes into overtime, there are no more injuries - every injury is treated as a KO. However, no SPP are earned for anything that happens is overtime, so farming passes, trying to farm CAS, or scoring with a specific player because they are "close" is pointless once the game goes beyond turn 16.

    P.S. As a side effect of the apothecary rule, if a crucial player takes a BH early in the game, it is sometimes a good idea to use the apo on them - that way you are GUARANTEED to get that player back at the very least for the second half. Otherwise, you run the risk of both results coming up as not BH, in which case the player is still lost for the match (and possibly forever), and the apo is also expended.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  11. 2Dimensional

    2Dimensional New Member

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    Unfortunately, because Nuffle is a d-bag with a sadistic sense of humour, your next injury will either be your best or favourite player getting a retiring injury or a death. It's how it is. He probably has an alarm telling him when people apo a badly hurt in the first half just so he can kill their favourite players. Typical Nuffle.
     
  12. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the Apo works as intended in the rules. BH results that are chosen after apo use are supposed to go to the reserves box.

    Regarding overtime, it is logical that no spp can be earned in overtime in order to prevent people from playing "endless" games where all they do is spam spp through passing, tds, etc! ;)
     
  13. Dionysian

    Dionysian Well-Known Member

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    Tents mino that doesn't lose TZ on a 1 is amazing.
     
  14. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    I think the mino is good at low and medium TV's. Though its more debatable at high TV's, and for match making the mino is bloat at medium to high TV's.

    In a match making I'm always a little happy when I end up against a chaos team and see he's rostered a minotaur...
     
  15. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I agree - the Mino is almost a case by case decision. It's good if you need to add beef to your roster - Chaos is strong, but some teams are stronger. Lizards, Khemri, and Nurgle come to mind - the latter WILL have a beast, as it's one of the best big guys out there. Orcs are on par with you, strengthwise, but slower and have higher armor (makes a substantial difference until you have a bunch of Claw, at which point things start going badly for the orcs). Also, as Dio mentioned, WA does not lead to loss of TZ, so as a roadblock the Minotaur is actually superior to almost everything, especially given its access to mutations. BUT... the Mino is very finicky when it comes to being repositioned, and a lot of thought must go into each action it takes. You have to try putting him into situations where not moving doesn't hurt you much.

    The Minotaur also has a hard time staying upright against a concerted effort from the opposition, because it needs doubles to get Block. I am a proponent of getting the Mino early, as it's just a useful piece with Frenzy and MB at low TVs. Once the other teams start fielding a lot of defensive skills, the Mino becomes bloat unless it managed to pick up some useful improvements along the way. A Block/Guard/SF/Tentacles Minotaur is extremely annoying for the opposition to deal with, and worth his TV at any team level (imo). Also, I have no experience in MM (only league play), and can definitely see the argument that in MM Mino = bloat. In a league, it's a judgement call. Also depends on your opposition - a rookie Mino is pure bloat against mid-high TV agility teams - all it does is either keep you from getting a wizard, or gives one to the opposition (in addition to their huge mobility advantage). Against bash teams, on the other hand, it can provide the extra muscle you need to win the block war.
     
  16. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Week 4 in my league and my Chaos team was absolutely thrashed by Orcs. A Beastman and a CW both got -1AV in the match (thankfullly I saved the Apoth for a -1 ST on another CW).

    I have 150K and was ready to get a Minotaur, but I'm now thinking I should fire the -1AV CW and replace him. The Beastman I will probably keep on the team as a backup and level him up as a dirty player to foul especially troublesome/annoying players. The one reason I can see to get the Minotaur before replacing the CW is that I will be facing Lizards in 3 weeks, so the Minotaur's ST5 would really help out in those matchups. I should add that the Lizard coach is one of the better coaches in the league, so I want to have every advantage available against him. I'd be guaranteed 4ST4 and 1 ST5 going the Mino route, and its early enough in the league that I could fire the CW later on without giving up too much SPP to him.

    Should I fire and replace the CW, buy the Mino, or do something else?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  17. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    IMO you should absolutely replace the AV- CW first. Lizards are going to be a very hard matchup for you no matter what you do. They can field SEVEN STR 4+ players, and their big guy doesn't balk at being moved without Blitzing (at least no more than he balks at everything else). So you won't out-strength them no matter what you do - you will have to outposition them and try to tie up Sauri with your beastmen.

    CWs are the workhorse of a chaos offensive line, and they must be able to mix it up and take hits. AV8 significantly diminishes their ability to do that. I think you should get a fresh CW asap, especially because the injured one only has 2 SPP.

    I like your plan of keeping the AV- beastman to be a bench player/fouler. He will do fine in that role until you can afford to replace him, and it's better to have a 12th player (even if he is Av7) than to not have one.
     
  18. PaloLV

    PaloLV Member

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    I'd get the Mino first and replace the -1 AV CW next.
     
  19. Mr Suplex

    Mr Suplex Member

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    Haha why am I not surprised that the first 2 posts responding to my question each suggested a different answer.

    Thanks for the thoughts. I have at least a few days to ponder this thankfully. More thoughts are of course welcome to confuse me more! :skull::p
     
  20. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    The Minotaur is unreliable and allows the other coach to dictate what you do (when the Minotaur is knocked over, you either have to blitz with it, or risk leaving it completely behind the action - and blitzing with MA2/Frenzy is a recipe to fall down). Chaos Warriors are reliable and don't have inherent fail checks.

    On the other hand, the Minotaur gives you sideline control, as well as a source of MB that will almost always get 2d blocks when it attacks. If your dice are good, the minotaur is clearly better. If your dice are average to below average, the CW will get you further.

    It's really a style preference. I would take the CW replacement first, but I don't think buying the Mino would be wrong either.