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CCXII format?

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Viajero, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, it only takes one or two drop-outs going unreplaced to ruin a division. I get that you (and others, to be fair) are really big on making the play-offs feel meaningful, but I'd actually argue that this hardline attitude runs entirely counter to that goal. After all, if you're increasing the likelihood of drop-outs, you're increasing the likelihood of admin'd wins (and unearned points) being introduced to a division and distorting the standings.

    The Crunch Cup has always had a reasonably high turnover of new coaches; to the best of my knowledge we've never had a coach drop-out in one season and try to come back and for another later. The threat of a ban in future CC often isn't always going to affect a coach's decision as to whether they quit or not in this one.

    To say nothing of whether we want to create an atmosphere of the cup being super serious business; threats of bans and penalties really suck the fun out of the room, you know? Better to give coaches the excitement of having something play for for as long as possible. :)

    Lastly, if it's a meaningful achievement you're after, might I suggest you try, you know, winning the thing? ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  2. Kanil

    Kanil Member

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    Indeed. If you make the playoffs and fall in round one, then you set your goal for next season to make round two. If you meet that, raise it again. I suspect nobody is likely to win the CC so often that it becomes boring and unremarkable to them.

    I think a 32 player playoffs is fine, I like large playoffs. Adding an extra week to the tournament isn't a huge issue, considering the benefits.

    Double elimination would be a headache to achieve in Cyanide and makes the finals really weird anyway, so I'd be against that.
     
  3. Dionysian

    Dionysian Well-Known Member

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    I would respectfully suggest it is the douchenizzles who dropout after a loss who are sucking the fun out of the room, and catering to them to work around their bs is just harming everyone else. Anyone who signs up intending to play the full season come what may on the pitch (barring IRL emergencies) isn't affected by any such penalty and thus its inconsequential to them or their fun. Indeed their fun is likely to be enhanced as coaches who do dropout when losing are all ostracized. Less hassle arranging games, less admin work, less annoyance during the game at whiny opponents; more fun all around - that doesn't sound super serious to me - it's just ensuring that the coaches treat each other with respect so everyone can have more fun. The only people penalties affect negatively are those who drop out and negatively impact the fun of the rest of the league. (Also people who are going to drop out after a loss are the same ones likely to bitch and whine during the game when they start losing - which doesn't sound like a coach who is going to be that much fun to play anyway).

    If this is true, however, then the DioWorld solution certainly becomes a lot less effective. Especially as the recent steam sales and TGS fan influx make one-and-done coaches much more likely this time around. However I'd still argue a better solution would be actively mitigating the downsides of dropout coaches rather than catering to them. By for example splitting the group stages into two separate cyanide leagues to allow coaches from one side to provide a (non-playoff eligible) replacement team for the other in the case of a dropout. As the playoffs are now done in a separate league this should have minimal admin consequences (unless the commish is at their admin league limit). I think most of us would be willing to throw an emergency replacement team in to help the cup in case of a dropout - and indeed a lot already do when occ or ssc needs it.

    If the community and/or commisioner want 40% qualification because they genuinely feel its more fun that way then great and you should definitely get what you want. But if 40% qualification is popular mainly because of dropouts; either because of the way dropouts impact a league (the negative effects of which can be mitigated) or because of a belief that a small niche community should be as inclusive as possible (it should be but that doesn't preclude insisting on a minimum standard of behaviour such as turning up to games you've agreed to play) then I would strongly argue this desire is misguided and self-harming.
     
  4. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    Some thoughts of my own, since this thread has appeared faster than I can read it, almost.

    1. The current play offs have already been expanded to 32 slots. Given we have 10 divisions this would mean 3 of every 8 being included with 2 wildcards left to the best 4th place teams.

    2. While a 10 team division might be possible, that extends the group stage from 7 weeks to 9 weeks. Equally reducing teams to 6 per division reduces the length to 5 weeks, in the past the general feeling as been that a 7 week group stage has struck about the right balance for both maintaining interest and allowing teams to develop. The general consensus from last season's mammoth 11 week season was that more divisions would improve the quality of the cup and reduce the drop out rate.

    3. Drop out of teams is a factor regardless of the size of the league and one that we will no doubt continue to deal with, there are sanctions in place at the discretion of of the league commissioner under the current rules, and privately I would note that there are some coaches who I would regard as welcome to return and others I would consider less so. We're here to play Blood Bowl, but we are also here because we are a community that encourages people to learn and develop in Blood Bowl and I think its important to understand that. While the Crunch Cup is competitive, for me, that is not is primary purpose. Winning it is less important than engaging people and ensuring they enjoy it and use it to learn to become better Blood Bowl players.

    4. As a side note there have been coaches drop out and return and I will continue to assess these on a case by case basis privately so long as the Cup remains under my care. Future commissioners may choose to do as they wish.

    5. I'd be reluctant to alter the focus of the Cup toward a tiered league, there are other leagues that do that structure far better than I could handle alone. I personally would prefer an all rookie team format in any case, but the structure we have exists to serve the community and was chosen as the preference of the community as a whole, while I admit I doubt any of us expected to go beyond 24-32 coaches, it remains what we have, until the community as a whole decides otherwise.

    If there was a desire within the community for a more tiered structure I'd be more than willing to assist in its creation, but I suspect it would require more hands at the controls than our current league format and I do fear it would appear a slightly sub-standard OCC clone if we did venture down that road.
     
  5. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    seems like it wouldn't be too hard to say something like "10-week season" and tailor the season and playoffs specifically for that.

    32 team playoffs is 4 weeks.
    that leaves 6 weeks, which means divisions of 7 teams.

    I really don't see what the fuss is all about. It makes the MOST sense to decide what length you want the season, then pick the setup that fits with the chosen length.

    an 80-ish team cup, with divisions of 7 (6 week regular season) would mean 12 divisions (84 teams). top 2 of each Division with 8 wild cards. that means 2 out of each 7 will go, with plenty of opportunity if you happen to be in a competitive division and played REALLY wel but lost out due to TD difference or something.

    For a chosen 11-week season, then 80 teams becomes 10 divisions of 8 with the top 3 winners from each Div and 2 wild cards.

    for a 12 week season, 9 divisions of 9, with the top 3 winners and 5 wild cards.

    etc.

    most of the arguments boil down to season length anyways (dropouts are reduced by short season length, wide range of playoff participants favors a longer season with less but larger divisions, etc.)
     
  6. Citizen Nev

    Citizen Nev Member

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    I might be having a maths fail here but that's 7 weeks. Each team will have to have a week off due to an uneven number of teams but still have to complete 6 games over the season.

    1 + 6 = 7 weeks
     
  7. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Yeah...no. There cant be odd team number groups in Cyanide server last time I checked. Only even numbers please. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  8. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    apparently i common sense failed.

    so yeah, everything i said in my last post stays there, except that your total season can only be an odd number of weeks + however long playoff season is.

    meaning if you want to limit it to 10 weeks, you'll either need to lengthen or shorten playoffs, or bite the bullet and go to 9 or 11 weeks instead
     
  9. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Given that GB'll want a hiatus week to move the teams from group play to playoff league, that's be 5 weeks remaining and groups of 6 anyway.

    So 14 groups of 6, top 2 in each group and 4 wildcards go on.
     
  10. SurgeonUFO

    SurgeonUFO Member

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    To add my 2gp; I would very much like to keep the idea of a playoff - that's one of the reasons I signed up for CC in the first place. A round of 32 doesn't seem a huge difference of problem to me, either. I think everything will work out okay as long as people play their games!
     
  11. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Thought GB said in principle 10 groups of 8 and the top 3 in each plus wildcards go to play offs? What´s it going to be? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  12. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    That was what I said earlier too.

    I was giving an example how it could be if we went with the "max amount of weeks as limit of group size".