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Skaven Cracking the strength line.

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by RedDevilCG, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    Messages:
    61
    I started playing BB this year, and have a good feeling for the rules now; however, I still don't have any concrete plays in my playbook when it comes to offensive setups. For the most part, I just throw together a line vaguely based on the the following rules.

    1) 3 linerats on the LoS, shoulder-2-shoulder or 1 space gap depending on what I had for breakfast,
    2) a thrower in the back field,
    3) everything else 1-2 space away from the LoS,
    4) make adjustments to account for a frenzy player if the opponent has one (too many details here to post them all),
    5) weight it to one side if that side has less skills,
    6) fiddle a couple players around 1 space right, then left, then forward, then back
    7) run out of time, receive the kick, then just go from there.

    My offensive play style is the 2 turn touchdown achieved by punching a hole in the d-line, running 3 GRs, a Blitzer, and maybe a linerat through, blitz a mark off one of my receivers, pass, touchdown.

    It's a very unsatisfying process, but I do win more than a lose. There are some lines though that I just haven't quite figured out the best way to deal with.

    Take this orc line from a 1400TVish team (there is block on BOs as well as other good skills on other players a smart orc player would use):
    <iframe src="http://www.play-creator.com/miniplay.asp?viewplay=4256" width="268" height="158" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    Seams no matter what I do, I will be making 3 dodge rolls per gutter runner to get through this line. Should I just not crack it, but instead pull back deep, and get the orcs to come to me? I've never had much success with any sort of delay. My Skaven die faster than average Skaven do.

    P.S. the above setup is not what I do (it changes all the time), but is representative of my offensive players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  2. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    You took guard on a blitzer or two right? (and maybe a linerat that rolled doubles)

    If so you should be able to arrange to get a 2d or at least an easy 1d block block on a corner BOB, even a pushback will open up a route along the sideline.

    Also as you're setting up like that on the LOS I presume you're planning to throw blocks on the Orcs there.

    You don't have to throw the block at the player directly across from you though.

    Something I tend to do is, using american football terminology. Have a guard hit the tackle opposite him. But than my center hits the other tackle, leaving my other guard to hit their nose. In both cases pushing them along my line.

    That way if either of those later two blocks doesn't get a knockdown, I can than make blocks on them with my tackles.

    I'm not sure if you're looking to get in the extra blocks. However the point is by throwing some diagonal blocks in any number of permutations, you could open a hole in the middle if you can get one or more of them to actually go down, or even just with pushes if you than blitz a lineorc.

    Now whether opening a hole and going for a pass is a good idea is another story, and I can't help you there as I'm giving you Norse related advice.

    Also, have you been introduced to a certain Mr. Fezglitch yet? If not I suggest you sit down for some tea and crumpets and discuss going completely bat***t crazy on the orc line. Granted you need an inducement for that, but not too much of one, and I know of Skaven coaches that go to pains to keep their TV down so they'll get inducements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  3. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    Messages:
    61
    Fezglitch, heh. Yeah, as you can see this is not an easy line to crack. The Skaven setup is just random, and not what I want to do. I ended up utilizing guard from my Storm Vermin, but I'm still wondering if there is a more "killer play" to counter this. I'm just a little concerned that I'm missing something of the skaven "meta-game", and playing them too 1 dimensionally when it comes offense.

    If not then maybe Coach could use this as a good setup for Orc players when he gets around to some starting formation write-ups.
     
  4. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    The defense you describe is not very effective against fast and agile teams.
    Unless heavily outnumbered, the skav' will manage to punch a hole in the "wall". Without at least one safety, you can kiss the rats goodbye :)

    Some quick solutions:
    - have a player with dauntless: get a 2D blitz on one of the BO cornerback and infiltrate his half
    - have a guard: same as above
    - get the RO! How can you play skaven without one? Get the RO and punch your way through (or fail miserabily)
    - have dauntless + guard: get the troll tackle then the 2 BO tackles. If any of those is a pow, run throught the middle.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  5. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    That is a bad set up for the Orcs to use against skaven.

    All you would need to do is put an assist out on one of the widezones against the black orc. Mark the blitzer with another player then blitz the black orc one die with one of your blitzers. You have block and a reroll so most of the time you get just the push you need and more than half the time knock him over.

    After the pushback the gutter runners then have one 2+ dodge with a reroll to get through into the back field of the orcs. Give the ball to one of them before you do so and they should be able to out run the orc players. For good measure mark all the orcs with line rats and they will also have to dodge to get away.

    If they turn over and don't run anyone back, sit with the ball by their endzone until they do.

    Most teams will set up slightly deeper accepting that skaven are going to get gutter runners into their backfield anyway. This way you can't out run them and they can defend the gutter runners better. Blitzing one and sticking plenty of tacklezones on any others.
     
  6. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    Messages:
    61
    Don't like ROs, and probably never will: turnover machines. I guess the only thing that can be done is go around the side. I'm still concerned about this 1d block though....

    So I gather the setup would be something like this now?
    [PLAY-CREATOR]4256[/PLAY-CREATOR]
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
  7. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I'd set up along the front line with the ones you have set back (at least one of the blitzers the second will get tired up by the LOS Black Orc). This will let you take advantage of a quick snap on the kick off as well meaning you can get a blitz and a block in on the wide zone orcs. There is also no reason to tie up 3 of your Linerats with the orcs on the LOS. Those orcs are slow, and you only need to place one player in a TZ of them. The other two you can put in the wider squares of the LOS so they are free to move and go and mark up their faster players. (If I remember I'll make a play creator of the set up I'd use when I get home tonight)

    Not sure why you are worried about a 1 dice hit with Block though. you only fail on a skull and you can use a team reroll. So you fail one in 36 times, the same an open dodge with a Gutter Runner. Use the Thrower you aren't going to pick the ball up with to cover it in case of a turnover on the hit.

    I'd also not start with two throwers, get another Linerat as you will need them for tying up opposing players. For that matter I'm not sure many coaches start an Orc team like that or will set up their defence in the same way either. If they do though that is how I would go about playing with skaven against that set up. They will soon adjust it when they see how easy it is to get past and not be able to catch them.
     
  8. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    398
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    Not in the Cyanide game, it happens 50% of the time :(

    Seems to be a bug with the reroll system.
     
  9. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I don't give my advice based on bugged software or dodgy dice!
     
  10. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    96
    If you have a blitzer with guard, I'd suggest something like this:
    [PLAY-CREATOR]4269[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    If I'm not outnumbered, I may as well use the high mobility of the skaven to cover the full line and protect myself from a blitz, opposed to your setup with a flank open.

    Play is as follows.
    • Center blitzer with block positions himself against the BO and line (Yellow path).
    • Second blitzer charges the BO for a 1D block (wrestle is very useful here as it'd clear the tackle zone on a both down).
    • Infiltrate the 2 GR in your opponent back field
    • left flank GRs can also try to dodge their way in
    Depending on the ball position, you may need to secure it first.
     
  11. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    ah cheers Voidseer saved me a job!

    That is a much better set up, if your blitzer doesn't have Guard then you need to move linerat #10 to assist the hit on the black orc but putting him next to the sideline. If you do roll a both down on the blitz you can knock the black orc over but then your blitzer is standing in the way. So you can either reroll the blitz (which I wouldn't), knock the black orc over and stay there, or knock the black orc over and try and dodge your blitzer. If you decide to just stay there then he will probably break his set up during his turn and you can get the ball past him easier in your next turn, so just look to keep the ball secure.

    With a reroll still in hand I'd go for the dodge and run him behind the orc lines as well to screen off some squares. If you just get a push back on the black orc then take that and follow up and stay there.

    Then you can run the gutter runners through needing to do one 2+ dodge with a reroll. Get the ball to your forward most GR and he can dodge through and with 2gfi he can't be caught by and of the orc players, though I wouldn't do them if you have used the reroll already.

    After getting the ball to the GR, before moving him though mark all of his blitzers so that he has to dodge with them as well. It may make sense to move the #7 GR first and use him to block the paths of the orc blitzers. Depending how this goes you can either score your next turn or perhaps even stall for a turn if the orcs mess up.
     
  12. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    Glad you like it.

    Yes you don't need guard, but having already two path drawn a third would have blurred the picture ;)
    I'd like to capitalize on a quick snap, which this setup doesn't do. My main concern however is to prevent a blitz.

    Actually, I learned something from it. Next time I play skaven I'll pick wrestle ASAP on a linerat (after kick ofc). It just rocks against cornerbacks, giving you another chance on the die to remove the tackle zone blocking the side-line.

    EDIT: Come to think of it, I just did the math...
    With wrestle and a reroll, you have 9% chance of turnover when blocking at 2D against you. What would you think of taking the chance? Any other result let you infiltrate 2 GR with full mouvement and no dodge.
    I think that's a straightforward plan to consider ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
  13. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    You could have looked that up on the blocking odds tables on the main site ;)

    Not a bad option, secure the ball then attempt that. If you do turnover then they will break their defensive line during their turn. Without a reroll at 30% it isn't a terrible option if you decided you want to save your reroll and don't mind sacrificing the linerat.

    Hopefully it seems a lot less daunting now RedDevil, though as I mentioned I doubt many coaches will start orcs with that starting roster and initial set up at kick off...
     
  14. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    Messages:
    61
    Might as well post up my team, so you can get an idea of what I play with.

    Thrower- safe throw, accuracy.
    Thrower- extra arms, block.
    Gutter Runner - block, side step.
    Gutter Runner - block, side step, shadow.
    Gutter Runner - wrestle, side step, dauntless.
    Gutter Runner - wrestle, dauntless.
    Storm Vermin - guard.
    Storm Vermin -
    Linerat - wrestle, fend.
    Linerat - wrestle.
    Linerat -
    Linerat -
    4 RR
    ---------------------------------------------

    My kicker has recently died, and I'm really missing him. At any one time I tend to have at least 1 gutter runner unable to play due to injury.
     
  15. CoachCarling

    CoachCarling New Member

    Messages:
    7
    As an Orc player myself,i'm definitely with Coach on this one. No Orc coach worth his salt will use that set up against Skaven. But if he does,i'm pretty sure he'll only do it once. After you leave his whole team choking in GR dust,he'll set up deeper.

    So,technically,that one dice block that you are so worried about won't bother you after he changes his set up.

    I also think you should reassess your feelings toward ROs. They might cause the odd TO,but they do add much needed survivability to your team by just being there.
     
  16. jamesprobert

    jamesprobert Member

    Messages:
    33
    I have to agree here, I find that simply having a big guy, and especially one that has the potential to cause as much carnage as a RO does, really distracts players from the main threat of the team, forever scoring Gutter Runners :)
    and anything that distracts your opponent from your GR's is a good thing right? :D
     
  17. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    You have more skills on your players than required to defeat this poor defensive setup then.

    I'd get sure hands ASAP on your main thrower however, it's a far better choice than safe throw IMO.

    I second the comment on the RO. If you consider the play we advise here, you can implement it without the RO. Then once the ball is secured and the GR are in place you could have fun with a RO without any fear of a TO.
    I'd use it only for that actually, wreak havoc in opponents lines: knock a takle, tie another and force the troll to move with the risk of losing its tackle zones.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2009
  18. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Skaven Throwers start with Sure Hands, I imagine he already has it!

    I've not played Skaven for a number of years in a league though I never used to take a Rat Ogre under previous editions of the Living Rule Book.

    If an Orc team sets up like that though and you do have one then one of the Black Orcs is begging to be Frenzied into the crowd if you have a Rat Ogre.
     
  19. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    My bad, I haven't been playing them for a long time ;)

    I still remember how cool the RO is though !
     
  20. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    Messages:
    61
    I ran into a similar line, and tried going around the outside as suggested. Thanks for the help everyone!