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Crunch Cup - Race Selection

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Breidr, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Breidr

    Breidr Member

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    So I've been doing a little (over)analyzing of the CC and the teams in it. I see that Dark Elves and Necromantic are the most numerous teams, followed by Orc and Chaos, with a mix of other Elf teams bringing up the rear (at the top). Most other teams have 1 or 2 representatives, except Norse which have 3, one of which as at the top, and that shocked me, I'm scared of the coach behind that team for sure.

    I have little experience with leagues, and most of them have been one off, with the team being pretty much retired afterwards. The only perpetual environment I have experience in is Naggaroth, which cannot be compared to league play.

    I have a general idea of the teams I want to give a shot in CTA in preparation for the next CC, I know it's not for awhile. I just wanted to get some input on some things I'm noticing, and maybe learn a thing or two to help me decide what race gets thrown in here, and which go to the cKnoor leagues.

    The first thing I noticed is that lack of Dwarfs. I see a couple Chorfs, but no Dwarfs. Any reason why? I also wanted to know why everyone hates them so much.

    Personally I don't mind them too much. If I had to hate a race, it would be Chaos, mutations just make that team so much stronger than the others it just doesn't seem fair in my book. I know the teams aren't supposed to be balanced, but damn.

    Are there any races a newish player should avoid in league play, or does it generally follow the same school of thought as other Blood Bowl games? I'm not sure what the dynamics of a league environment are. I also want to try and be nice to my fellow coaches and not flood the environment with anything that already has too much, or maybe I'm just over thinking it. All I know is pub leagues are full of bash, which is why I'm trying to train myself with Dark Elves, still kind of bashy, but Elves so I don't add to the problem too much.
     
  2. G20

    G20 Member

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    You're ahead of the game in my book if you care about balance of teams in the league and not wanting to gravitate towards overplayed teams. The problem with dwarves is that the only counter to them are other annoying teams (chaos, chaos dwarf, or orcs ( I don't count Nurgle since I think they pay a fair price for their super bash abilities)). Bashing is good and fun, but playing all av9 basically says, "Only I get to have fun with bashing (unless you too are playing a cheesy team) ". This poisons a league environment (unless you only ever want to face 4 teams) since most people want to be competitive. The reason you likely don't see many dwarves any more is that chaos dwarves are new (for Cyanide) and also do everything regular dwarves do better. It's also perfectly fine to play easier teams while you're learning. Just don't still be rolling out the orcs and dwarves after you have many hundreds of games under your belt.
     
  3. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    ok, to answer some questions:

    dwarf are underrepresented because the community shames dwarf coaches. Its heavy-handed enough to make sure the recipients know that its mostly in jest, but its also persistent enough to realize that there's some truth to it. Much of the community DOES dislike dwarves

    Dwarf teams are hated because they have one playstyle (that they do well), which includes spamming guard, mighty blow, and a smattering of other skills to make them better hitters (SF, Piling on) and trying to injure as many of the other team's players as possible before running in a TD. More importantly, dwarves are effective and lethal at low TVs, which, since there are a limited number of games you can complete before the CC, makes dwarves a serious hindrance to other teams trying to climb the ladder and participate in (eventual) multiple Crunch Cups. Most coaches would rather face a 1300 Chaos team than a 1300 dwarf team.

    You didn't ask, but i feel i should chime in here: Chaos aren't as universally hated because they take a LONG time to get going. Even the two chaos teams in Division 1 (the highest TV chaos in the Crunch cup) are currently a lot less scary than those 2200+ TV behemoths running around matchmaking with 6+ MB, 4+ claw, 3+ piling on, and mutations and doubles to make dodging impossible.

    League play combines the pros and cons of 1-off leagues with the pros and cons of matchmaking. Single leagues, where you'll play 5-9 games ever favor strong starters and teams that "burn bright and burn out fast" like undead, amazon, human, and wood elves. Matchmaking favors teams that live a long time....period. Long-term league play encourages teams that will compete at many many TVs, and have decently good survivability, as well as teams that win, and don't JUST kill opposing teams. Hence dark elves, high elves, necromantic, orcs, chaos, and undead all being fairly well represented - these teams are rather customizable in PLAYSTYLE....orcs with some decent skills can run a less hitty, more scor-y game, and high elves and dark elves have the durability and skills/stats to play a hitting game when it suits there purpose.

    The CC is rather different from many leagues -I'VE- seen (which doesn't encompass much) in that its relatively agility-heavy, compared to the traditionally bash-heavy leagues. One thing that causes this is the fact that this website is a fantastic reference for BB knowledge, and agility FEELS like it takes more skill, or at least more risk analysis ability to play well.

    ANY team can perform well in the CC....the former champions list includes bash, agility, and hybrid teams. You'll even see a few decent, though masochistic coaches even playing stunty teams in the CC. Play what you want - realize that no matter what you play, there will always be people that see you as "adding to the problem" whether you add to the "dwarf coaches" problem, the "cheaty elf" problem, or the "this-guy doesn't care about his record and only wants to cause mayhem cuz he's playing goblins" problem (which is admittedly a smaller problem, but goblin coaches scare the piss outta me).

    If you find the dwarven playstyle FUN, then by all means give them a try in CTA and CC....heck, maybe even make a few so you can see if one levels up in a fun and interesting way (hmmm...a MA8 dwarven runner? could be interesting! two AG4 blitzers with dodge?). I would suggest trying out a few to see what you want (no limit to CTA teams, and you can always tell people "hey, i really wanna play my Ogres/Chaos/Underworld team tonight) and THEN picking the one thats the most fun and making a few copies to make extra sure. Above all, make sure the team you bring in will be fun for every game you play....whether those games span an 800 TV evolution, or whether you lose 5 players to death in game one (gotta have some fun inducements....nothing says "i hope you all die too" like a dwarf team with 3 bribes!)

    *Edit* i'll also disagree somewhat with G20 and say that there's no problem playing agility teams in a 95% bash environment, and in fact you can turn that to your advantage. Wood elves and skaven might lose a fair number of players to a dwarf coach, but they've got a pretty solid shot at winning unless their dice are terrible. The game is just as bad with an overabundance of agility teams, or even an overabundance of certain hybrid teams!
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  4. G20

    G20 Member

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    I don't see how an overabundance of hybrid teams would be a problem since a hybrid team basically requires a varied play style.
     
  5. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    G20. Necro spam is unpleasant. People rarely mention it but it's true.

    Liz on the other hand? There should be full on, liz only leagues. Hot stuff.
     
  6. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Though Dwarves are universally reviled... the few I saw in Crunch Cup did try to play with some quite agile and quick runners... making for a less boring game. Dwarves are hated because they are boring and well suited against dodgers.

    As for your choices... play whatever you find more fun, and competitive if you so desire. Most players in Crunch Cup take things more lightly so your not likely to face killers teams for boring same skills...
     
  7. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I'll defend Chaos a little bit by saying that while you can, eventually, build every player into a CPOMB monstrosity, if you intend to actually win games, and not just cause as much damage as you possibly can, it will take a lot more diversity and planning, especially at lower TVs. Mutations provide flexibility for sure, but they are not really just flat out "OP". Claw lets you treat all players as if they were AV7. But it does absolutely nothing against players who already ARE AV7 (who also tend to be the players you really want to get rid of, like pesky elf catchers), nor does it help you bring a player down (if you don't knock 'em down, Claw is useless), or deal with a player stronger than you are, or stay upright when the opposition is laying the wood on you. Extra Arms provides a benefit when catching - but not as much as the Catch skill would, had any Chaos player been able to access the Agility field. Same with Two Heads - a +1 to dodge rolls is worse, statistically, than the free RR given by the Dodge skill (unless you want to toss a team RR into the mix, but you'll burn through them very quickly doing that).

    Instead, mutations allow for a very high degree of specialization, but at the tradeoff of bypassing "fundamental" skills, such as Block. With the exception of the Minotaur, who is unreliable for all sorts of other reasons, no Chaos player has ANY starting skills (save Horns on beastmen, which will at most be used once per turn). So every time you take a mutation, you are not taking... Block. Or Guard. Or Tackle. Or Sure Hands. On a team that relies on precision hitting and muscling its way up-field without getting bogged down in order to score, at least until you can get a couple +Agi rolls, and even then you will never be elves :) .

    So yes, Chaos is a team that scales really well as TV goes up (it just keeps getting better with more skills, instead of plateauing like some other teams do), but it also requires a lot of management to get going, and supports a variety of play styles. Personally I like Chaos - it's a good exercise in positioning and patience (especially early on). And they can manage to score more than 1 TD a game :) .
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  8. Citizen Nev

    Citizen Nev Member

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    If I wasn't playing Dwarves in OCC I'd be playing them here, and destroying all-comers BWAHAHAHAHA
     
  9. Blasscend

    Blasscend Member

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    It takes a special kind of madness to play flings here. You might get there!
     
  10. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    Well I am likely to roll in with a Goblin team again next CC if that has any impact.

    Hopefully with all the experience I have had since my first run with them, maybe I will avoid losing one of my games this time.
     
  11. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    One more thing about the CC. Fast fragile teams can do better in the CC because they only have to play somewhere in the region of 11-12 games to win the whole thing, which means there's loss opportunities for the team to get destroyed. Unlike in the OCC where these teams have to battle their way through multiple gruelling 9 match seasons, facing plenty of high tv bash along the way. Last season Netsmurf came in with 6 CTA game skaven and got all the way to the final, the burn fast and bright teams do better in that kind of environment. This makes them more viable and gives a lot of coaches who shun them in OCC-like environments encouragement to try them. Actually I think the CC could do with some more vicious bash so if you want to try that its not a bad place for it :).
     
  12. Breidr

    Breidr Member

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    I've been wanting to try Dwarfs for awhile. important going to throw a team in Nagg and see what happens. I thought they'd improve my bash game. slower movement and less strength than Orcs makes me think they'll be a little tough on me and teach me positioning and when to commit. I don't understand the hate. To me they are downgraded Orcs.

    I'm going to stop caring what the internet think about me. If I wanna play Dwarfs, then dammit I'm gonna play Dwarfs!

    I mean, I dislike playing against AG 4 teams, but I don't fault coaches for playing elves, I just accept it as part of the game. Why should this be any different?
     
  13. skullashtray

    skullashtray Active Member

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    KHEMRI!! they are universally known as the best team in BB
    and thats just a fact jack
     
  14. Dionysian

    Dionysian Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I'd love to see more dwarves around. Put one in CTA, get a couple of games, enter CTALE/CC.
     
  15. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    It isn't.

    And for the record, I don't mind dwarves, but despise playing against orcs, which is BB on training wheels.

    (Don't mind my new account which has oodles of orc teams - that's just the way the themes went :p)
     
  16. Phunbaba

    Phunbaba Active Member

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    Right got to bring the Flailers back next season and see if I can top my old record of four kills in one game. :D

    Unless I change my mind between now and then.
     
  17. Breidr

    Breidr Member

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    Great! I'm getting somewhere. Now to a assemble my squad of vertically challenged killers. For some reason I'm excited over this race, more so than I was with Orcs.

    I noticed the starting roster calls for all positionals and 3 rerolls, sounds good. I'm just going to pretend the death roller doesn't exist for now. Would that be the team I field all the time?
    I know with my Orc team I swapped out throwers on offense and defense, one for each, and as Undead I bench one ghoul on defense to keep him safe.
    Do Dwarfs do anything like this? Players are more expensive and also more sturdy. I'm not sure if Dwarfs get a bench or not. In my mind I want all the AG 3 I can get so I'd field both runners all the time?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  18. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Usually, yes. Not only because of the AG 3, but also because they give you some semblance of speed.

    Bench is good - AV 9 breaks too so you could expect a KO and a Cas (and you got 4 AV 8) - and if you get the roller you don't want to be forced to use it only 1-2 turns. Early on a single bench is enough, later you might add a second.
     
  19. Phunbaba

    Phunbaba Active Member

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    I will add that while I normally field both if I can one of my runners in the BC is more offensive* with strong arm and accurate while the other defensive with block and kick. Though I'm now thinking I should of gone with wrestle. And while you might get by with eleven having a bench of one or two is the way I play. Cas and KOs happen after all and you want to field eleven if you want to have a prayer of stopping some of the more agile races. Some of the less agile ones too for that matter.

    *In a couple meanings of the word.
     
  20. Breidr

    Breidr Member

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    This is kind of off topic, but it's my thread.:p

    The Flailers, I'm interested in this team. That's quite the body count for just one game. I can respect that. is there a team record somewhere. To what race do i owe the pleasure?