Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Nikolai II, Aug 29, 2013.
I thought Lizards were the MOST bashy
What?! Have you ever coached Ogres? They will obstruct you at every turn!
Yea yea - I did sort of mean "for the opponent" though
[trying to crack the code I think I get 6(12+3+2) but with AG access and kill your team negatrait factored in 102 seems high
Remember to give any team I coach +20 in bash
I think the real issue here is that "bashiness" is a combination of being able to bring your opponent to the ground, as well as to break their armor, and these manifest themselves at different stages of team development.
This is why Amazons are so bashy early on - 4 blodgers out of the gate, everyone has dodge, 4 players with guard access - it's not that they are resistant to armor breaks, it's that they are just really annoying to bring down to begin with (especially since only two teams start with tackle on their initial roster - dwarf and chaos dwarf). Once block and tackle have been taken, though, the focus shifts more to your ability to break armor, which is where MB, PO, Claw and DP all come into play.
Similar problem with Khorne - Frenzy amplifies the importance of positioning and the expected outcome of a block, so it will either lead to more knockdowns or more turnovers, depending on the opposition and the skill of the coach running Khorne. Pit Fighter Cultists don't have normal Str access, iirc, but once they get Block, their effectiveness improves dramatically (odds of turnover on a 2d block become ~3%, on a 1d ~17%), as they can throw blocks much more readily.
Or with Lizardmen - they can have 7 players out on the field who are Str 4+ and have Strength access on normal rolls. The only thing they don't have is access to Claw. At the same time, a CW is clearly "more bashy" than a Saurus. Why? Agi 3. A CW has a reasonable chance to disengage from a block and move elsewhere without the need for Break Tackle - in fact I would argue BT is a waste there. A Saurus, on the other hand, is stuck where he is until he either stuns the marker, gets freed up by a blitz, or attempts a very risky dodge (45% chance of failure even with team RR thrown in) - so a Saurus might end up "wasting" a skill selection to be able to accomplish something a CW can do already.
P.S. was thinking about this, and Nurgle is another classic example of having a skill that you normally wouldn't take, but that influenced "bashiness" - Foul Appearance. Most teams that have access to mutation will never pick that skill, because there are much more useful choices elsewhere, even in the same mutation field. Having said that, 5 Nurgle players (all of their Str 4+ guys) have it for free. That's a 1/6 chance of an opponent's block failing, period. Does it help in a bash war? It very much can. It's a skill that, when widely present, can either do nothing, or it can completely ruin the opposition's blocking scheme and waste a blitz. In fact, against a 1d block, Foul Appearance offers the same protection as Dodge. Of course, most intelligent blocks are not 1d, so there's that .
After all this pontification, I am not sure that I have a suggestion better than Barmution's system. The only idea I can come up with, and it's a pain in the ass, is that instead of assigning a team "bashy potential" based purely on the race, each team should have "BASH FACTOR" calculated based on the players and skill choices on the roster, as it stands prior to the kickoff of CC. I know that's a ton of extra work, and frankly speaking, while I like crunching numbers, doing so for 56 or 64 teams would be an all day affair at best. But the problem with potential is that not every team will "live up to it", and some normally not bashy teams may roll lucky doubles and stat ups that make them very bashy. Is a dark elf team with 3 +1 Str players and 2 witch elves with Mighty Blow "bashy"? What about a chaos team that chose to focus on ball handling and utility skills, and as a result only has two Claw/MB players rostered?
This was never meant to be a precise indication of "bashyness" as the term itself is somewhat fuzzy. You need to take the context into consideration: It's merely meant as a tool to help automatically seed the divisions with more variety, it's not meant as a be all end all absolute measurement of a specific team's ability to cause and resist damage.
The only team specific parameter I'm considering is TV and that requires me to redefine a couple of variables (ST and MUT access) to scale with predefined increments of TV (say 100TV). This will never be precise but that isn't the goal either.
2nd iteration based on input:
--- Every line above this one are mutually exclusive as every ST5 or ST4 player has ST access. ---
3*Mut AC N
2*Mut AC D
1*start Foul Appearance
11 man roster
18+24+16+4+16+10+9-2-1 = 94
18+48+4+14+5+18-2-1 = 104
18+48+32+6+8+45+6+2-3-1 = 161
18+6+4+5-3-1 = 29
8+4+24 = 36
4+27 = 31
4+6 = 10
18+48+48+33+6+2+20+21-2-1 = 193
24+8+4+4+10+21+18 = 89
18+32+6+8+5+24-2-1 = 90
18+24+48+14+6+12+2+40+3-2-1 = 164
72+18+4+35+12 = 141
18+72+6+35-8-2-1 = 120
108+36+30-15-10-12 = 137
36+12+10+4-18-6-2 = 36
18+16+22+6+4+2+9-2-1 = 74
36+16+12+4+10+15+14 = 97
72+16+4+20+6+22-8 = 132
36+16-18-18-6 = 10
18+48+32+30+2+6+5+25+18+10-3-6-1 = 184
18+16+33+6+4+5+6-8-3-1 = 80
32+8 = 40
72+18-24 = 66
13 man roster
18+24+16+4+16+10+9-2-1 = 94 + 4 = 98
18+48+4+14+5+18-2-1 = 104 + 10 = 114
18+48+32+6+8+45+6+2-3-1 = 161 + 10 = 171
18+6+4+5-3-1 = 29
8+4+24 = 36 + 6 = 42
4+27 = 31 + 6 = 37
4+6 = 10
18+48+48+33+6+2+20+21-2-1 = 193 + 28 = 221
24+8+4+4+10+21+18 = 89 + 10 = 99
18+32+6+8+5+24-2-1 = 90 + 6 = 96
18+24+48+14+6+12+2+40+3-2-1 = 164
72+18+4+35+12 = 141 + 30 = 171
18+72+6+35-8-2-1 = 120 - 4 = 116
108+36+30-15-10-12 = 137 - 10 = 127
36+12+10+4-18-6-2 = 36 - 4 = 32
18+16+22+6+4+2+9-2-1 = 74 + 4 = 78
36+16+12+4+10+15+14 = 97 + 10 = 107
72+16+4+20+6+22-8 = 132 + 4 = 136
36+16-18-18-6 = 10 - 8 = 2
18+48+32+30+2+6+5+25+18+10-3-6-1 = 184 + 12 - 4= 192
18+16+33+6+4+5+6-8-3-1 = 80 + 2 = 82
32+8 = 40
72+18-24 = 66
Goblins having a low bash ranking is weird, but that's stunties for you.
Nice, interesting work.
Heh - I understand. I like to theorize... a little too much sometimes. If nothing else, maybe I at least inspired the addition of +1 for Foul Appearance . But if not, it's ok too. I agree with Juriel - good work .
No problem, I know that perfectionism is hard to resist You very much did inspire the Foul Appearance addition in the same way Dreamy and Kjelstad's comments made me include negatraits.
ATM the things I'm not happy with are the Goblin's value (but that can be easily remedied with a big, unique Secret Weapon factor) and the Amazons rather massively undervalued rating. I'm considering to add a ST3 starting Dodge factor of 2, which would see Amazons at +22/+26 (11/13 player roster) and Undead at +8, Woodies, Dark Elves, Pros, High Elves and Necro at +4 for both 11 and 13 player rosters. Does that seem fair?
I actually wrote up a paragraph about how mobility leads to more bashing ability, but then figured it wasn't worth the hassle.
(ST3 + starting Dodge? PE and HE don't count for that, then)
But it would definitely help (though not fix) the Zon rating, who are the weird outliers with Gobbos right now.
Don't know what I was thinking about w the PE and HE... I haven't got more than some compilation worth of time for each entry here atm, so I'll go with that as an excuse
Does +40 sound like a reasonable secret weapon modifier btw? It would put Gobbos close to Skaven in bashing ability and a fair bit higher than the various Elf teams. I'm basically pulling that number from a hat, though...
I like the dodge st 3 solution
It seems like an unnecessary kludge to account for one team. And Secret Weapon is a nega-trait, so it adding to the score would be weird (and would change dorf numbers).
Just ignore that weirdness and say Gobbos don't follow the rules.
I meant that the Secret Weapon modifier was a one time bonus to the Gobbo team specifically, not a bonus to be applied to each SW on a team. I phrased it a bit poorly.
i've played against gobbos...they don't feel like a bash team to face. Their number should be low.
Sure they can cause some damage, but UWD causes arguably more with claw access on normals. Most of the the damage they cause comes at least half from people underestimating them and marking up to the extreme.
What about instead of ST3+ starting dodge, you change it to starting blodge....value of like 5 to 8. This makes zons 20 to 32 higher, and wood elves 10 to 16 higher (and lets face it, while not a bashing team, the WDs can certainly cause some damage)
You take the goblin number and flip a coin, heads you multiply by 10, tails you divide by 10. They either get the weapons going and clear the pitch or the opposition rolls the weapons and goes stunty hunting. There never seems to be a close game when I am involved with goblins on either side
I think you could solve goblins in line with what you've done already. Secret weapon should be a penalty, but not a big one, because we don't really want to start delving into how many bribes you expect the gits to get .
Goblins have two trolls, who are Str5/RS - that's already accounted for. They have a fanatic, who is Str7/secret weapon/random movement/multiple block (in the sense that he can potentially block multiple times a turn). He is basically another troll, from my experience of accounting for him - you stay away from it, unless you feel adventurous and can get a blocker to toss a -2d against it as an end of turn action, with a 25% chance to KO. They have a Looney, our favorite player ever. He can count as a Str 3 CPOMB. He can shred people's armor a little better than a CPOMBer, but the latter has an almost as good a shot at pitch removal given proper tackling skills, and doesn't kill himself. I don't think the pogoer needs any special consideration. Finally we come to the bombardier, which is the most "gobliny" of players, imo, even more so than the chainsaw. Since it has no access to Passing skills and is stunty, usually 5+ is what you are looking at to launch the bomb (with a fumble on a 1 or 2). Make him cost a flat 5 points and declare victory .
Block is already accounted for, so 'zons should not gain that much. How about you get +6 for starting blodge and +3 for Block (up 1 from previous iteration) and +2 for ST3 Dodge? That way you gain a bit more for starting off w blodge as the synergy is well known.
I'm still queasy about doing individual SW calculations. I think I'll stick with their current value as I agree with Lim and Kjel about Gobbos tilting either way on the pitch clearing scale.
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