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Crunch Cup XII Divisions

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Nikolai II, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    I can't say I'm a fan of the TV disparity that causes. TV is a fairly accurate indicator of a team's abilities (assuming a coach doesn't spam strong arm on his saurus or KOR on his beastmen)

    Throwing in that gift of dropping a high tv basher down an extra div is... Maybe not awesome
     
  2. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

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    How about you back that statement up with some numbers to illustrate? Remember that we're using adjusted TV, not base TV, as the initial seeding value, which may well be a cause of base TV discrepancy to start with. This combined with the fact that more agile/less bashy teams usually are better suited to take advantage of inducement money (mainly due to the wizard) and the problem is pretty neglible IMHO.
     
  3. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to disagree with Ken here. I think wider divisions make the game more dynamic.

    Even without all the inducements implemented (missing stars, no cards, etc.), the inducement system in blood bowl makes for more dynamic games than two 1650 teams playing each other.

    I wouldn't mind playing RnR, or any of my various developed teams in the various leagues i'm in vs. teams up to 300 above or below me. if i'm up on TV, i have better skills, and if i'm down, i get to have fun with inducements. The ones who really struggle will be the pure bash team coaches (orc, dwarf, chaos) that would recieve big inducements, but even they would be able to snag bribes and/or a wizard to keep their gameplan moving.

    As a side note, i find it funny that RnR's bashyness is only hovering around 100, given how devastating they've been for their opponents so far (its ok, i understand how the system works, and that itsa measure of a RACE'S initial potential, not their current status)
     
  4. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    I would probably be happy with getting plenty of lower TV teams seeded in my div if I had the highest TV team in the entire League too :p
     
  5. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

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    Bear in mind that it's also supposed to measure how well they stand up to damage, which accounts for Norse not being way up there. I'm not even going to try to make a system that will take into account a Norse team that spams DP on every single non-double Lino, for example (sorry, Kjel :p).
     
  6. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    that was my plan too....it just LOOKS like i'm being conservative with my DP because 3 of my 4 LV2+ linos have a double or ST boost.
     
  7. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually trying to think from the point of view of all the teams i've coached for any length (ie. more than 2 games). For my orcs, norse, lizards, zons, and necro, i wouldn't mind being the TV lowman every once in a while. But then again, i make heavy use of bribes and wizards, and actually like some of the star players. RnR is actually in a really rough place right now with so high of a TV...Wizards are bad for Sid's health.
     
  8. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I think the TV disparity can be misleading, depending on what causes it. I remember playing Rama Set's Undead in crunched cup with my own Undead team, and iirc Rama was ~350 TV above me. Mirror match, so all the disparity was due to him having more skills than I did.

    I ended up taking a wizard and some other stuff, and yeah, I was a noob about how I used my wizard, that being my first effort at playing as a heavy underdog. That having been said, even if I had used the wizard to full effect, I would have lost that game handily. I had 4 players with block, he had 8, and MB/Tackle combos. There was just no way to overcome that disparity - he could always get an MB/Tackle player to blitz SOMETHING :) . By the end of the game, I think I had 3 or 4 players left on the pitch.

    A significant lag in skills that directly influence block success rate (block, dodge, tackle, guard to some extent) is virtually impossible to make up with inducements. If the opposition has an expected 70% KD rate to your 55% or 45%, you will lose, unless your armor pulls a miracle and your d6 are through the roof. But in an average scenario, you are doomed to being ground away. You try playing keep-away, while strategically blitzing - but your opponent is making their own blitzes, that have a much higher probability of "working". And you will inevitably have a failed dodge or some other mishap at some point that exposes you to extra hits - or you just concede the TD.

    On the other hand, a team that's 200K above you because they have two +1 Str players and an extra guy on the bench is much easier to handle. Yeah, those Str boosted guys are annoying and can get 2d blocks easily, but your general "success rate" is similar. There a star player or a strategically used wizard can really help swing the game in your favor. The last two games I played in OCC, against two HiE teams with 13 player rosters, I didn't feel like an underdog, despite being down 150 TV to both of them and earning a wizard as a result. I had enough Tackle to combat their Dodge, so the blocking war probabilities were similar for both sides.

    But if I were running a ~1500 TV chaos team, and was stuck in a division with a bunch of rookie teams - why, that would be a dream come true! Sure, they can load up on inducements all they want - I have a bench, 9 players with Block, and probably 1 or 2 with some combination of MB, Tackle, Guard. As long as the wizard doesn't outright kill half my team, I will happily fight that blocking war all day. I also probably have 4 RR, so a chef doesn't scare me much - 2d blocks with block are fairly reliable, and I am ok playing with 2 RR per half. Oh - I also probably have much higher Fan Factor than the rookie team, so bring on the free re-rolls.
     
  9. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    Akirilus. I'll chalk you up as siding with Limdood then? :p
     
  10. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    Heh :)

    In general I am a fan of balanced divisions, stunties being an exception that just has to be accepted :) . Of course in CC, if you make the playoffs and are a division 7 team matched up against the winner of division 1, then good luck! May Nuffle and the Force be with you (cause you'll need both).
     
  11. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    keep in mind i'm not advocating playing RnR against rookie 980 TV teams or anything.

    I'm not even advocating 1400 vs. 1850.

    I'm saying that if a few teams on the top and the bottom are, say, 50 TV further apart (for a disparity of up to 100 more, MAX, which might bring a current spread of 100-120 up to around 160-210), it would actually give the game a dynamic feel and bring in the always-interesting pre-match strategery.

    Also, @ akirilus, mirror matches are a pain anyways...even 1 or two skills difference, or even just differently spread can feel like a mountain to overcome. a 1500 chaos team with 4 CWs, 9 beasts, and a spread of block all over, along with a 4AG beast vs. a 1500 chaos team with 4 CWs, skilled with block and guard, and 1 killer beast, 1 blodge/SH beast, and 5 rookies.....the teams are identical in TV, but the team with the focused skillup plan is gonna take the game unless the dice go massively against him. Mirror matches are just like that.

    1300 dwarves vs. 1150 elves is an interesting game. 1300 dwarves vs. 1150 dwarves is just a super super frustrating game for the 1150 coach, unless that wizard performs a miracle
     
  12. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't have a problem with that assertion, except for the mirror matches where one team just gets screwed because of matchup issues. But hey - bad matchups happen cross-race all the time, even at identical TV. Elves vs. rookie Khemri is a terrible matchup for the Khemri. Amazons vs. Dwarves is almost equally terrible for the zons. That's just how the cookie crumbles.

    But yeah, I would be highly against feeding freshly minted 1K teams to 1500+ teams that have had a full season behind them already. Elves and Skaven can maybe cope with it a little, due to their ability to occasionally pull plays out of thin air, but a bash on bash game where one team is 500 TV above the other is a lost cause, and probably not all that fun of an exercise to go through. And with fragile agility teams, you are just praying you have a team left, after a game like that. You might even pull off the upset, but development will sure as hell suffer with 2 dead players and 2 serious concussions.
     
  13. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    This part is actually something that the BC division discussion would benefit more from. ;)
     
  14. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Bash isnt as bad as facing down a 1500 elf team, full of blodge and able to go anywhere...