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Dark Elf Dark Elf Development

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by makinde, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. makinde

    makinde Member

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    I'm continuing gaming with my Dark Elf side, which is now looking forward to a new season where they will be facing five new teams at various TV levels: Skaven (around 1600), Dwarves (around 1400), Khemri, Wood Elfs and Pro Elves.

    The current team roster is
    Blitzer - Block, Dodge, + 1 skillup (normal)
    Bltizer - Block, Dodge
    Blitzer - Block, +1 MA
    Blitzer - Block, Tackle
    Witch - +1 skillup (normal/+1 MA/+1 AV)
    Witch
    Assassin
    Lineman - Wrestle, Dodge
    Lineman - Wrestle
    Lineman - Kick
    Lineman
    3 rerolls, apotechary

    I've already has some discussion around this in a previous thread. I have enough money to invest in a new player (my 12th), and having played enough drives with <11 players, I think that this is worth doing.

    My thought right now is to get the second assassin. I feel that I am fairly well covered in terms of speedy players (5 MA7 and 1 MA8) so I don't really feel that I need a runner, and from my brief experience with the sins, 2 assassins are a lot more than double as good as 1.

    For the Witch, I think that I have pretty much settled on going for Block. Seems reasonable?

    For the Blitzer, I am still in doubt whether to go for Tackle or Sidestep. Having to face a lot of slippery opponents in this league, I think Tackle would be very useful. On the other hand, with (hopefully) two assassins to defend with and 1 Blitzer already with Tackle, I should be able to make my backfield dangerous for any gutter runners/catchers who feel like running around there - and I can't hit more than one of them each turn anyway. Sidestep might be more the way to go, in order to increase my presence on the sidelines.

    Thoughts? Am I missing any obvious ideas/builds?
     
  2. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    I would get a Runner over a 2nd Assassin.
    The Assassins will be useless against Dwarfs and Khemri, but a Runner is useful against everyone. With normal access to Passing skills you get get Nerves of Steel and Leader, without needing to roll doubles.

    Block for the Witch is a given.

    And as for the Blitzer, Tackle is useful against 3 of those teams you will be facing.
    Side Step is useful all the time.
    But that all being said I would still favour Tackle for taking out those Gutter Runners and Wardancers.

    Just my 2 cent.
     
  3. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    Runners are fine but not exactly amazing. I don't like Leader at all regardless (especially since you already have 3 rerolls) so that's hardly a draw for me but Nerves of Steel can be good. The Mv 7 is nice but when facing those teams it won't matter as much. You already handily outrun Dwarves and Khemri while Skaven and the Elves can match it easily. A decent choice but only decent.

    Assassins face the issue of being good vs some teams (Skaven and the Elves) and bad/poor vs others (Dwarves and Khemri). Other then that though they're fine. You probably won't get much use out of Shadowing so it's just a matter of if Stab being good vs 3/5 of the teams is enough to make him worth it to you.

    So, is Stab good enough? If yes, get the assassin. If no, get the runner. Or put in another way, the safe choice is the runner, the bigger risk/bigger reward is the assassin.

    As for the skills:
    Witch: Block is a great skill and even better on a frenzier. If you really feel the need for getting the takedown on a ball carrier a Wrestle witch can be good (plus she already has jump up) but if you're not hurting for that (or if you want her to injure players more often) Block is the other option.

    For the Blitzer, I'd probably go Tackle. You've got a fairly Bashing light league there (you're actually one of the better fighting teams on there, only the Dwarves are going to out muscle you alot, Khemri loses to you outside their Mummies and you can avoid them) so I'd worry less about them hitting you, especially your blitzer, and worry more about you hitting them, especially those Gutter Runners and Elves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
  4. makinde

    makinde Member

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    Thanks for the advice, guys. I chose to go with the assassin, as I really feel that with those guys it is either 0 or 2, in addition to which they have the potential to be very useful against the next set of opponents.

    Heavily tempted by Sidestep, but I chose to go with Tackle for the Blitzer and Block for the Witch. Had a good first game against Khemri, which I won without any major casualties. Really good, since I managed to get 3 skill advance, including on one of my assassins.

    The team is now:

    Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Tackle
    Bltizer - Block, Dodge
    Blitzer - Block, +1 MA
    Blitzer - Block, Tackle + 1 Skillup
    Witch - Block, Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy
    Witch - Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy
    Assassin - Stab, Shadowing + 1 Skillup
    Assassin - Stab, Shadowing
    Lineman - Wrestle, Dodge
    Lineman - Wrestle
    Lineman - Kick
    Lineman - + Skillup
    3 rerolls, apotechary

    No doubles or attributes, unfortunately. The only doubles I have got with this team was on a player who shortly after died. Ah well... :mad:

    I'm thinking the Blitzer should definitely get Dodge, to make my second Block, Dodge, Tackle Blitzer.

    If any other Dark Elf coaches are reading this, I think I should definitely have gone for Dodge on that +1 MA Blitzer that I have - the +1 MA has almost never proven useful, as he spends far too much time lying on the pitch or KO'd compared to the other Blitzers. The Blodge blitzers, on the other hand, are a constant thorn in the sides of my opponents and also are my best ball carriers (due to being very hard to knock down, and their ability to easily extricate themselves from very sticky situations).

    I think the Assassin will be getting Block. If my opponents mark him... well, their funeral (I hope). Any thoughts.

    I'm thinking Wrestle on the Lineman. Casualties have brought me down to 4 of these guys, so everyone but the Kicker are fodder for the Scrimmage line. Dodge could be an alternative, but I'm thinking that wrestle may prove more useful in the short term.

    I'm facing the nasty Skaven team (1710TV) next.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2011
  5. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    I'd probably go Dodge, Dodge, Wrestle.

    The Blodging Blitzer is one of the best things ever.

    Your Assassin will always be stabbing so you don't get the offensive bonus of Block to help, it's just defense and Dodge helps defensively as well plus it makes you a more mobile character. Dodge seems the easy pick to me (unless you really expect alot of Tackle, so if you're really worried about the Dwarves then Block is a fair alternative).

    The Lineman is a Wrestler easy, especially since you'll be putting him on the line.
     
  6. jrpeart

    jrpeart Well-Known Member

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    The Assassin doesn't always have to stab and if you get a chance to make an advantageous block it is always worth turning the stab down in order to gain spp. Therefore I'd probably go for block on the Assassin as you ideally don't want to be blitzing with them anyway.

    The Blitzer should definitely get dodge and the Lineman can go for either wrestle or dodge followed by the other.
     
  7. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    Ok perhaps I should have put it this way 'You always have the option of stabbing so the offensive benefits of Block are lessened considerably." Plus you've got plenty of less dangerous ways to get SPP then blocking players, that Double Skull is always around the next corner and it can easily turn from an advantageous blocking situation into a poor one in just a turn.

    Dodge gives you protection plus gives you the dodge reroll to make your assassin less likely to get tripped up and get him to targets you actually want him to stab.

    Still it's not a huge deal either way, if you don't get one this level you'll get it the next so...
     
  8. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I'm recently coming round to the idea of taking Dodge first on almost everyone with Dark Elves. As well as the protection, it lets you get to where you need to be and that saves re-rolls for when you do get :bothdown::skull:.
     
  9. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    I'd take Dodge on all 3 players. I find that Dodge is great when spammed on Dark elf teams at low tv. When you get to high TV though then it ceases to be the best choice for recycled linemen as their first skill and taking Block or Wrestle then makes more sense as the first skill (due to the proliferation of MB + Tackle evidently).

    I don't think that taking the +MA on the blitzer was a bad idea. The temptation might be to send him forward as a receiver due to his MA, but that will get him knocked about more often than not, so I would try to make sure he doesn't get isolated, but always has a buddy or two next to him. In this way you can then make better use of his MA for changing the attack from one side of the pitch to the other etc. Once he gets a couple more skills he will be a great player. Also MA 8 gives you decent odds for being able to chain push a 1 TTD if you only have 1 turn left for receiving the last kick-off.

    Generally I am not a fan of assassins. Sure they can add something different to the team and can be deadly against low AV teams, but they can be equally useless against Av 9 teams and equally fragile and easy to remove from the pitch! I'd have 2 runners instead of 2 assassins any day.
     
  10. Mico Selva

    Mico Selva Active Member

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    Asassins can be very useful as markers. Stab provides a turnover threat free way of endangering lower AV opponents, even in a crowd, while Shadowing makes sure they're useful also against more armored (and slower) targets. Sure, until they get Blodge, they will spend a lot of time on the ground (and in the KO/injury boxes), but after getting first two skills they can be an invaluable addition to the team. And if we add Side Step/Multiple Block/Diving Tackle/Tackle into the mix, they can get really scary for anyone trying to get away.

    I don't understand - what exactly does Dodge have to do with :bothdown::skull: ?
     
  11. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

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    He means that when you have a lot of players with Dodge, you'll be using far fewer team re-rolls on failed dodges, so you'll have more team re-rolls left over for failed blocks. Which is nice. :)
     
  12. Mico Selva

    Mico Selva Active Member

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    Thank You. That makes sense. I need to improve my reading comprehension.
     
  13. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    What Rusty said... :D
     
  14. makinde

    makinde Member

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    Hmm... I can certainly see the argument for Dodge, as it provides yet another advantage against opponents who do not have Block/Wrestle (who will not want to use either way :bothdown:). Perhaps I should go for 3xDodge (the league is not very Tackle heavy, apart from the Dwarves).

    The team started with a Runner, but he got -AV in an earlier match (and was duly fired), and I eventually picked up the assassin for a match against Skaven. And since I feel that they are really players that need to be 0 or 2 of, I decided to change this into an assassin-based team. If (when) I start getting casualties again, I may probably reconsider that, but for now this is the way it's going.

    On the plus side, they draw a lot of attention, which improves the survivability of the Witches somewhat. Blitzes spent on the assassins are not targeted at them.
     
  15. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    See one of the things I like most about playing Dark Elves is that a lot of those players are AV8. I think the way Dark Elves play if you end up taking a lot of those AV7 players you're in for a shock.

    It comes down to personal preference for me, and normally my end game first XI would be two witches, all the blitzers and maybe a runner (but I have a terrible track record with them being retired the first hit they take).

    I like the assassin piece because it's fun. I would normally take one as a second or third sub and leave it at that, because there are situations they can be effective in.

    I like the way Diving Tackle combines with Shadowing, and I had a multi-block assassin who is still one of my favorite ever players on the old BB while he lived...

    I'd be interested in seeing how this build goes and how exactly you use them. I came across a two-assassin team in the OCC and they tore me to pieces, but in fairness I was playing halflings, and I can tell you stab/shadowing is not a halflings friend.

    I'm not sure a two-assassin team is optimal, but the idea appeals to me as a bit of fun.

    As for the dodge idea, it's not a bad one. I'd go that way in most dwarf-less divisions. The chances of protecting him are the same as block/wrestle, and
    in the early game I find failing routine dodges cause way more turnovers than it feels like they should. I hear a lot of experienced elf coaches swearing it's the way t0 go..
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  16. Anglakhel

    Anglakhel Member

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    In early team development, Dodge is almost always a fantastic choice.

    Once more teams start developing Tacklers, it slides down the list as a priority in some cases.

    Early in development, I always take Dodge first on my LoS Lineelves. Unless they roll a Double and I take Guard.

    When they get their second skill, I take Wrestle if they already have Dodge. If they have Guard, I take Block.

    I like to go Dodge first so that I have two chances at a Double before I commit to Wrestle or Block. I love Wrestle on my Lineelves, but Block has better synergy with Guard, so I would rather try and see if I might have a chance at Guard before I put Wrestle on my Lineelf.
     
  17. maxcarrion

    maxcarrion Active Member

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    yup, kick first on one lineman, tackle first on one blitzer, dodge on everyone else except Witches, they get block, doubles get guard - simple as that
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2011
  18. Anglakhel

    Anglakhel Member

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    Except I love Wrestle on my Witch Elves.

    Part of the reason might be that I usually wait a little while before I take my Witches and my biggest priority is to be able to Blitz down Block Ball Carriers. For this, Wrestle tops Block. If the Ball Carrier doesn't have Block, I can hit it with one of my 4 Blitzers.
     
  19. makinde

    makinde Member

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    I ended up taking Wrestle on the Lineman and Dodge on the two other players. Facing Skaven was no fun - the assassins were ineffective and we lost the bashing battle and the match, 2-1 (and one assassin got MNG). We again lost the bash battle against Wood Elves (we actually did better in blocking, but that doesn't help when your guys get injured and theirs don't). We played most of the match 8 vs 11, but still managed to win 4-2. Since I already have two Blitzers with Tackle, I chose to give the third Lvl 3 Blitzer Side Step for this line-up.

    Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Tackle
    Bltizer - Block, Dodge, Side Step
    Blitzer - Block, +1 MA
    Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Tackle
    Witch - Block, Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy
    Witch - Dodge, Jump Up, Frenzy
    Assassin - Stab, Shadowing, Dodge
    Assassin - Stab, Shadowing
    Lineman - Wrestle, Dodge
    Lineman - Wrestle
    Lineman - Kick
    Lineman - Wrestle
    3 rerolls, apotechary

    I'm up against a very tough Dwarf team next - plenty of MB and Guard, and I'll still be giving away 90K in inducements. Unfortunately, I have the Wrodge Lineman MNG, which means that I will be facing a bunch of angry Dwarves with only 3 Linemen.

    I don't want to buy a Runner - 4 AV7 players is more than enough. Would a Lineman be worth it? I'm thinking no, in order to minimize the risk of a wizard inducement, but on the other hand I'm pretty sure to be outnumbered throughout that game. Thoughts?

    The assassins have been less than impressive in their last couple of games, albeit they do fulfill their functions as space deniers and targets well. Against the Wood Elves, for instance, my lone assassin for that game were the constant target of Blitzes from Morg'n'Thorg - resulting in one apotecharied Dead and one Badly Hurt injury. Without the assassin, several of those Blitzes would have been targetted at the Witches instead.

    I think if I were to redo the team, I'd not have bought the first assassin (and if one of the assasins get taken out, I don't think I'll replace him). It's not that I think they are bad - the lack of Guard on the team make them one of my few effective tools for opening up an opponents defense, for instance. But they are simply way too dependent on luck for their effectiveness for me to really like them.
     
  20. Creamster

    Creamster Member

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    Hmm interesting, I am also facig the same issues with my LOS. My biggest being I have 2 guard line elfs and i don't want to stick them on the line and the same with a kicker (which I see you have as well). If in doubt a blitzer can do this (SS one) as AV7 is far too risky.