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Elf Delay Tactics

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by BoBliness, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. BoBliness

    BoBliness Member

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    London / Perth Australia
    I've played around just recently with an elf team with 3 dump-off players, both the throwers and a catcher.

    Its been interesting. The team performs substantially better against strength than it did, but slightly worse against agile/balance teams.

    The real interest is that you can easily extend the delay on you scoring, right out to 7 turns if you like, though it gets a bit hairy towards the end, particularly if they have a couple of players with tackle/mightyblow/piling on. As long as you have two of your dump-off players standing, its almost impossible (barring quite bad luck) for them to get the ball off you. Of course you've still got to keep a reciever standing also.

    I've also tried playing it around the other way, using a one-turn scorer to go stand in the end zone, and a dump-off catcher to stand within a few squares of him with the ball and your other catcher/dancer to stand a few squares away from him.
    Without an illustration its hard to describe, but it leaves the opponent with the options of either ignoring you for two turns while he gets enough players back to be able to cover the dump-off before he blocks the catcher, or end his own turn by throwing the block.

    I was wondering if anyones ever gone right out to the end on this one and got 5 or 6 players with dump-off on one team? Use all your doubles for it and see where it takes you.

    I'd be interested, its potentially one of the highest SPP generating combos you could use since there's no limit on the number of dump-offs you can make and your two throwers can easily pick up nerves of steel to keep the chain going by catching next to an opponent allowing another dump off lol.

    I think you'd really need four skills on each thrower to make it truly work, but I just wondered if anyone had tried it.

    It seems a possibility for dark elves too, though you lose whatever chance you had at true hitting power by burning your doubles on dump-off instead of guard obviously.
     
  2. MadBanker

    MadBanker New Member

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    That's an interesting build though quite unlikely as you need a heap of doubles for it (you really need nerves of steel in addition to dump off for it to work well...). Might be viable for Pro elves though as their catchers already start with nerves of steel.

    I don't plan to go that far with my Dark elves but I'm going to try two runners with nerves of steel working in tandem.
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    It would be annoying to play against, though you would be using a lot of skill rolls picking skills that are very situational and of little benefit on defence.

    As Dump Off and Nerves of Steel are both throwing skills, Chaos Pact would be the easiest to do it with, though you really need extra arms as well.

    Of course the fact Elf Catchers start with Nerves of Steel, Dump Off and Nerves of Steel would be fairly trivial to pick up on the Thrower to play this way with them. Though your players will be getting hit a lot and you do have AV7 across the team. You can delay well enough taking other skills as well which imo have more uses in other situations as well.
     
  4. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    96
    I should give it a try. Although I find wood, pro, high and dark elves team to be fairly different. DE and ProE are very good candidate for this strategy.

    With WE and HE, I'd rather play long pass, or hand-off + pass. A WE thrower should never have to use dump-off (I wish!), 'cos that 1 SPP for completion may very well be the last heroic action of its carrier.

    If I may play the devil's advocate I would say that most elves team problem is not to play solid offense, but to have a strong defense. For that matter, most of the skills I pick are to help the defense. If you can score once when kicking, your have a very good chance to win the game.

    Thus, lineelves get guard on a double, 1 WE/HE catchers gets dauntless, blitzers get mighty blow, etc...

    That doesn't leave much room for dump off, sadly.
     
  5. CoachBigBoss

    CoachBigBoss New Member

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    17
    Well dump-off does look very interesting and worth checking out, but as coach said dump-off and nerves of steel would take too much skills to build unless you have a running oriented team.

    Too bad the Orcs lack agility for the catch or my Orc thrower would love it.
     
  6. CoachBigBoss

    CoachBigBoss New Member

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    Dark Elf runners already have dump-off and you can field two of them. They have passing skill selection open to them too. Though they are squishy with no other starting skills and cost 80,000 apiece.:rolleyes:
     
  7. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    96
    Hey! Do not overlook the passing game with orcs !

    Sure they're not the best at it, but they can use it as an extra threat. Many orcs have AG3. AG3 thrower with pass and AG3 catcher with a reroll is not too shabby.

    Actually, dump-off is not a bad 2nd skill for throwers (block being the 1st in my book). I think I still have an epic Javabowl replay of a goblin receiving a dumpoff and being thrown into the end-zone on turn 16 somewhere :)

    I don't like stating the obvious but dump-off is good for teams running the ball. That's why I do not like it on wood & high elves.

    If you have it, you can put it to good use to do some ball control. But developing a team only to do dump-off ball control will make it kind of useless in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  8. CoachBigBoss

    CoachBigBoss New Member

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    Haven't over looked it. I have a team where my thrower has accurate pass and a goblin and blitzer with catch. But without nerves-of-steel or a higher agility dump-off is a huge risk. Though having an AV of 8 is soooo much better than a passing teams thrower it still is asking for a dead thrower.Still working out a playbook for them, but that is another thread.:D
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  9. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    96
    Orcs are not primary passing the ball, so accurate is questionable as 2nd skill. Dump-off is IMO a better choice. Not because you will want to use it. But because it gives you a second chance if all else fails.
     
  10. Agamon

    Agamon New Member

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    15
    Easy to do, yes, but not recommended. I had 3 AG+ marauders, one was a passer (with Accurate, Strong Arm, Nerves of Steel and Dump-Off - one trick pony, but he did that trick well) and two were catcher/pass blockers (Extra Arms, Pass Block, Nerves of Steel, Dump-Off - Catch would have been nice, but the only doubles skill roll I got in 33 attempts on that team was a ST+).

    Yeah, looks good in theory, but unless you stall the builds they are originally intended for (the dump-off thing is really an added bonus) and give them Block in the first 5 skills (and you sure can't count on Dodge), they're way too fragile to want to get hit that much.

    An aside on the orc passing discussion, the season I played these guys, my marauder "thrower" came in second in the league in completions. My roommate played orcs and his thrower had 31 completions to my 29, in 2/3 the amount of games played (and he had no AG 4 players on the team, either). Not sure how he did it. He's playing Dark Elves this season and is having trouble passing. Go figure.
     
  11. BoBliness

    BoBliness Member

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    36
    Location:
    London / Perth Australia
    Actually on orcs its a pretty solid choice for a second or third skill for your thrower.

    I quite commonly run cage up edges (one off the edge of course with standfirm to stop the crowd, and frenzy on at least one of your non-cage blitzers to take advantage of oppurtunities for crowd pushes) and you can play with a standard five man cage, thrower carrying, and then a sixth man (at the moment a linesman with +1 agi in my case) standing on the sideline level with the thrower (so one clear space between him and thrower).

    Its impossible to hit the linesman so he's safe from the crowd and he's a clear reciever for the dump-off if they manage to get a hit on the thrower.

    You dont need nerves of steel for elves to use dump-off, not at all. Its still a 8/9 chance of the pass working fine without nerves of steel and with just the one tz on the thrower. Thats without accurate also obviously.

    Realistically on defence, as long as you're dumping off backwards to a clear reciever, since its the opponents turn and you are most likely using this tactic against a slow team, its not a massive problem if the pass goes wrong.

    Either way, a lot of its benefit is actually the deterrent.
    Most teams wont hit your dump-off thrower without trying to setup either an intercept or a couple of extra tz's on him.
    As long as you make it very hard to do that, they will often either fail an action trying to get someone in position, or simply not actually hit him, leave him with their tackler on him.


    I agree that the elven defence is normally their weak point, and paradoxically, thats the strength of this option.
    I'd be looking to do it with the dump-off offence and a one-turn scorer in your team who hopefully wont even be on the field for most of the game.
    If you can reliably delay for 6 turns (which is difficult) then suddenly the game becomes whether or not THEY can score in two.

    Which no strength team will ever be able to do against a good elven team, barring incredible luck of course.

    so if you recieve, then you 'should' go into half time 1-0 up, which is at worst a draw for the game (hopefully) and is quite likely to be a 2-1 win to you.

    if you are defending first half, you should go in 1-1 courtesy of your one turn scorer (once again hopefully) and that leaves you playing the same game in the second half for a 2-1 win....

    I'm going to have to play around with it when I get the chance, but it wont be for a while, moving house/country and getting married in the next two months...busy times lol
     
  12. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    96
    Oh my! Bob, that's a lot of topics you're covering :)

    On topic, the best way to stall with elves is by careful player positioning. If you are :
    • at movement distance of the scoring line
    • not threaten by a blitz on your ball carrier, or the only threat is a difficult blitz involving no support a a couple of dice rolls
    • safe from having your players hit (with WE) or most of your players hit (others AV8 elves)

    Then you can avoid scoring this turn and try to be in the same position the next turn.
    This occurs most of the time when you have breached a slow team defense and you are able to isolate most of the team.

    Totally off topic then, I'd say wood elves do have a very solid defense. As long as you are agressive enough to avoid the cage to be organized.

    Once facing a cage, they can stall the game for quite awhile yielding only one square of land per turn. Just make sure you'll have another 2 turns left to score.

    Forget about one-turners, LRB6 will probably make it harder to have one, and you don't need a 90k PO player warming the bench unless it's turn 16.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  13. CoachBigBoss

    CoachBigBoss New Member

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    Nice post and I never thought of elves as being good stalling team past 3-4 turns. Then again that's just because I haven't played against it yet. With my orc team I realize that the elf team will get the first TD so I go for the cage to crack it open while leaving only a couple of orcs in the backfield to harass the catchers. Force them to pass or risk a turn-over in the 3rd turn. That will hopefully leave me time to score by turn 8. The trouble is I'm trying to diversify my team to include a passing option, but my team isn't as bashy as a typical orc team. So elf throwers may not feel as pressured to get rid of the ball.

    Dump-off or not though I will go for the pointy ear ball holder as soon as possible so at the half it will be 1-1.

    Side-note: Congrats and I hope the best for you and your soon to be wife. Wow huge changes all at once. Good thing I didn't see "first child" in that list or we would not hear from you for a couple of years.;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  14. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    I have an Ag5 Pass Block Wood Elf that might have something to say about that tactic.
    Other than that I'd find that tactic quite annoying but we'd get you eventually! :)
     
  15. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    Delaying scoring is often useful with Elves, because it's easier to defend (especially to screen a cage) 4 turns than 6. When receiving the ball at start, for instance, the temptation to take the 1-0 lead in just 2 turns is great. But players experienced with their roster know that 7 turns are enough to score the 1-1 before half time (and receive in 2nd half). Leaving them 3-4 turns to get even actually puts the pressure and may induce them to take more risks.

    Dump-Off is a way to keep control of the ball, but it relies each time on dice (with no Team Re-roll available during the opponent's turn). I usually gives it to my "front-end thrower", the one who follows Blitzers, Receivers (and Linemen if possible) into the opponent's lines to screen off and chase the ball. He is the one who must pick up the ball once another has managed to get is loose from the opponent's carrier.

    I have tested it between 2 players of a ProElf team : a Thrower (Pass,Fend,Dump-Off) and a Catcher (Catch,Nerves of Steel,Side-Step,Dump-Off). It works great most of the time, and should be even more confusing for the opponent with one or two additional players within the quick pass chain, ... until a "1" gets rolled, realizing just afterwards that the blitz had just pushed up the (now former) carrier :D
     
  16. BoBliness

    BoBliness Member

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    36
    Location:
    London / Perth Australia
    Yeah its certainly risky, eventually the double one will come. But its risky to play a 6 turn defence against a good cage also.

    One of the benefits of playing a LONG offence is that you force the opposition to spread out and you've got quite a lot of control over who they get to hit.

    I havent tried it out the way I'd like to yet, so I cant comment on whether it will end up being effective enough to justify it, but I'd like to make a team where the intent was to hold the ball on offence for 6-7 turns and score via hail mary pass lol. It'd just be an interesting (and quite probably less effective) way to play an elf team.

    Its really only something that would work for the first time or two, after that your opponent would work out ways of dealing with it.

    But really dump-off itself is hard to deal with for a bashy team, you have to rely on injuring the dump-off player, and if I make sure the player you're best able to blitz him with (preferably the only one you can) doesnt have tackle (by positioning and screening access to him, leaving one obvious hole for the player i want you to blitz with to come through), then you're left blitzing a thrower with block and dodge, using a player without tackle, quite probably at a single dice block.

    I suspect better coaches would simply tie up the entire elf line that turn and not bother blitzing the carrier, possibly start work on recievers or war-dancers instead, force me to score by simply making it too painful to keep delaying, but until I try it, I wont know :)
     
  17. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    Sure. I think that most of the coachs would be quite surprised once by such trick. The best ones shouldn't be twice, but it may be enough to give you an essential advantage for the whole game (and, particularly, for its final result).

    The SPP cost must be taken into account, though. Regarding it, I would say that the best rosters to develop this way are Dark Elves (Runners : Dump-Off by default, Fend/Side-Step as first improve, plus level 2 Blitzers with Dump-Off) and Pro Elves (Catchers with Catch and Nerves of Steel by default and Throwers, both with Dump-Off as first improve).

    The remaining problem is that only 2 players max may own Dump-Off on normal SPP rolls. It's also possible to make "Dump-Off" the basic choice for any SPP Double roll of any player of the team, but it's not so easy to get 5-6 of them :(
     
  18. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    Illustration

    Just to test the play creator, an illustration of an Pro Elf Turn 1 when receiving the ball against Orks. Rosters are full of positional players (not realistic, but for example only). Elves' actions aim at keeping the ball longer and safe instead of scoring upon Turn 2. I hope my defensive Ork tactic is not completely stupid :D

    Kick-off

    The Orks (in Black) manage to kick close to the center of the pitch. All their muscles are at the front line with a classic Black Ork-Troll-Black Ork LOS, Throwers just behind to pick up the ball if needed. Flanks are covered by Blitzers, at the front and back-end areas.

    [PLAY-CREATOR]3961[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    The Elves (in Red) aim at :

    • Pick up the ball (of course)
    • Open a gap
    • Move players into the opponent's side of the pitch
    • Cover their carrier
    • Stretch the defense, prepare a horizontal safe area for throwing upon next turn and move players out of tackle zones.

    Turn 1

    1. A Lineman (left) picks up the ball (2+) and gives it to a Thrower (left) (2+) who moves between him and the side line (start of screening)
    2. A Lineman (right) enters an Ork Blitzer's tackle zone. An Elf Blitzer (right) blitzes (2 dice) and goes on moving afterwards. One Catcher (right) follows him without dice roll needed
    3. The other Blitzer (right) moves back to screen the carrier
    4. The LOS moves. One Catcher (right) steps back (2+) then run into the gap, the other one (left) moves (2+) next to the Blitzer (left) to end up the screen, the Lineman (center) steps back a few squares (2+), close to the other Thrower (right) who moves closer to the side line
    5. The remaining Catcher (right) runs into the other side of the opponent's area (3+,3+ and 2+)

    [PLAY-CREATOR]3964[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    The 3 first (and more important) steps are successful with two 2+ AG and 1 2-dice block rolls (maybe two addtional 2+ rolls is the Ork Blitzer is still upon his feet). The LOS frees itself upon three 2+ AG rolls. The last Catcher's move is optional and risky, but may confuse the opponent a lot if succeeded.

    Now, Elves have to wait for Orks' reaction. The purpose is to attract them towards the ball carrier (2/3 of their LOS may reach the screen, plus one Blitzer and one Thrower) and stretch their defense between the players in their area of the pitch for, at Turn 2, throw the ball horizontally to the other thrower, screen him with available free players, free the players into the opponent's area, then the screening ones who may come and screen the new ball carrier. According to the situation, this kind of move may be repeated until the Elves decide to score upon turn 4 or 5.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
  19. BoBliness

    BoBliness Member

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    Location:
    London / Perth Australia
    My biggest problem is a recent one, in the Cyanide open league the opposition isnt necessarily that concerned with winning.

    You win, but the whole game they focus on simply putting your best players repeatedly on the ground and stomping them.

    Now, this gets you an easy win.

    But it makes for a hell team development lol.
     
  20. voyagersuk

    voyagersuk Member

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    Location:
    Essex
    Online leagues allow people to become the lowest denominator of TT League members:rolleyes:

    the cabling does not allow for the swift Thwack to the cranium such behaviour deserves:cool: