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Deside on CCV

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Netsmurf, Jun 2, 2011.

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What should CCV be like

Poll closed Jun 23, 2011.
  1. Like CCIV with two stages before playoffs and rookie teams

    5 vote(s)
    19.2%
  2. 1 groupestage before playoffs and rookie teams

    8 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. A cup with access for old teams as well, final format to be desided later

    10 vote(s)
    38.5%
  4. Extended inducements YES

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  5. Extended inducement NO

    18 vote(s)
    69.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    Well my orcs are TV 1800 or so just from CCIV. I have been trying to do just that and get a load of games in to push them higher, but for some reason the 8 deaths (one with the assistence of mad dog and slicey the two "biggest fans" in the crowd) we caused in CCIV seem to put people off, and I have not managed to get a single game going with them.

    For me anyway any CTA games should be fine I think. Would not want to let in random teams from other comps though. I guess if people go insane, maybe we should have a 15 or so game limit for the teams.
     
  2. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    We definitely want to establish some upper limit on either TV or games played, but aside from that I see no reason why CTA participants should be restricted.
     
  3. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    Well the two finalists played 15 games in the compertition, so I would suggest a limit a bit higher than that for number of games. It is not that easy to get a high TV game on CTA anyway.
     
  4. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    It should not be TV based but number-of-games based IMHO. I would personally be in favour of allowing old CCX or CTA teams that have no more games played (total games put together: CCX, CTA etc) than any of the the new teams in CCV.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  5. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    Well that does not work as the finalists of CCV will play 9 games and my team from CCIV has already played 14 in that competition. The finalists played 15.

    I was intending to play narly on the weekend as well with that team as well which owuld be my 15th game and his 16 th (well the final was not much of a game tbh), but still.
     
  6. bintz

    bintz Active Member

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    15 games sounds like a reasonable limit. Then, you can also make a couple of exceptions with teams like Narly's who are a bit above the limit but that didn't really got to play one of their match.

    That will still be way more games played than the most advanced teams from CCV (going up to the finals will "only" be 8 games)
     
  7. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I would suggest since we're thinking of a divisional system, something along these lines.


    Division 1 - maybe 13-18 games played.
    Division 2 - maybe 7-12 games played.
    Division 3 - maybe 1-6 games played.
    Division 4 - fresh teams.

    It gives us a starting point and provided the divisions can be managed sizewise then it works for me, got to seed the teams in somehow.

    We could even vary division sizes at the bottom and choose the number of promotions/relegations accordingly, though playing more games in any one division will increase the season length for all.

    I'd suggest we get up an entry list at a point in the time closer to the CCV finals and freeze the teams from playing beyond those divisional limits to avoid someone entering at say 12 and playing 3 more in CTA before we get organised.

    It would also give us numbers to work out how many teams entering at each tier and the number of divisions needed at each level (might be more than 1 new team level I suspect).
     
  8. bintz

    bintz Active Member

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    I'm not sure we'll get enough teams to fill 4 divisions.
     
  9. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I don't think we can be that strict Gallows.

    Probably we will have to look at the TV of the teams that apply, list them by TV from top to bottom and then see how to split them. Right now we have no idea how many teams will apply or what the TV will be.

    I agree once the applications are open people will need to stop playing to fix the TV. I suspect we will have a bit of a gap in the middle though with some high TV teams from CCIV then a gap then somre more around 1200-1400 and then the rookie teams.

    I do want to play Narly wiht my orcs, and creamster for the 3rd place playoff. I am happy to leave it there though. That would be 17 games.

    I thought the whole point was people wanted to play developed teams anyway, so it does seem quite artificial to put restrictions on. I guess I am more sanguine though as I have a pretty developed team ready to put in there.

    We have about another month or so of CCV (we tend to overlap the final wiht the start of the next comp in any case). I guess if someone wants to take a CCV finalist into CCVI that is more of a problem though.

    I guess we do need to decide this now as we need to start the sign ups in about 2-3 weeks.
     
  10. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'd rather see games played banding than team values though, it but I do also think tighter banding is required to ensure that the differences aren't too huge. There's a massive difference between a barely started 1200 TV than and 1800 TV skilled build and that difference, for most teams will be around 10-15 games played also.

    As for gathering numbers, 4 divisions of 6 only requires 24 which we have in the current CCV and we had 24 and 32 in the CCIV and CCIII so it would seem reasonable to expect that. If we want to up the length the divisions could play twice - but 10 games would be a long season. I'd rather see more smaller runs than long ones myself.

    Whatever we do we're going to have to expect things to take a season to shake down and settle since we're favouring allowing developed teams direct entry.

    Depending on who signs up will determine how the exact split shakes out - 3 division of 8, 4 of 6 etc, we won't know until we know who is entering.
     
  11. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

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    Worth pointing out that a player's CC record should also come into play somewhere, probably as more of a tie-breaker. For example, if me and Netsmurf submitted similar teams in terms of games played and TV, then it would be best to give him priority given his impressive CC record as opposed to my very short and distinctly average one.

    Edit: Also, shouldn't this be in a Decide on CCIV thread? :p
     
  12. SorroW

    SorroW Member

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    Sorry if I barge in here and start to ask questions.

    But I have been reading this thread and have one or two.. :)


    So in the next Crunch Cup you are thinking of changing it to a division based Cup so that people who want to keep playing their teams can do so. Right?

    And if so, is it gonna be a One time chance to enter with a Developed Team?
    And at later restarts it is a new team or not at all?

    About the different leagues and how to "split" them according to TV/# of played matches. Will this also just be the first round? and then people move up and down according to how well it goes?
    And if it is so, then I would like to point out that it isn't that big of a deal. Just group people up some way and let the first of the "New, Improved and Divisioned Crunch Cup" sort them out! I mean, sure there is merit with using the TeamValue approch as team value "should" say alot about a team. But it doesn't. And played matches should be a good idea of how developed a team is. But players die, for me alot, for others some. So Played is also a flawed way.

    So just pick one. And be Clear and let everyone know which way is the way you are going. And then lets have each other and prove the system wrong (or right).

    Just to confuse everyone I would like to propose a third way. Just randomly select Teams for the first time. Put them all in a hat and let Nuffle sort it out. :)
    That way everyone will be to weirded out by the approch that no-one will think of complaining.


    /SorroW, who needs to stop rambling on about things...
     
  13. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    I wondered why my ears were tingling :p FYI I’m not thinking to submit my Pelf team from CCIV to participate in CCV. They are a great team, but I grew a bit bored with them after 16 matches. I’ll probably go with my Goblin team from CCII, but am still undecided.

    I really like the idea of being able to submit developed teams into the comp. Some previous teams I am happy to leave dead and buried (like my CCIII Zon’s), but others I would love to continue playing in a league environment (such as aforementioned Gobs).

    I would suggest that we shouldn’t set any limit for entry to CCVI other than to restrict it to CTA or previous CC teams. Sure some coach could go off and play a bunch of CTA matches to really skill up their team, but I don’t think its going to have a huge impact. And its not like it’s the easiest thing to get CTA matches at high tv (or any tv) anyway. Considering the types of coaches we have in CC and CTA, I can’t see anybody particularly going out to abuse the system either.

    In terms of allocating teams between divisions, I would suggest it should be tv based. Its simple and easy and relatively balanced.

    Given then fundamental change from previous CC’s I’m glad I’m not the admin for CCVI. Its going to be really hard to allocate teams and organise the rules. And we have never had a divisional system before, with teams promoted/demoted, so I think it could be a rough start. Considering how great CCV seems to be going, I wouldn’t be surprised if we easily got 24 players and perhaps even 32 to equal our record number of participants in CCIII. Here’s hoping everything goes smoothly.
     
  14. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    This is a good question and something else I guess we need to clear up now. I have to admit I was considering rolling a new Delf side (never played them before!) and seeing how they went for a season, but it'd be nice to know whether or not I could dust off my CCIV Helf team if it turned out I couldn't get on with them.

    I agree, especially that I don't see anyone being the type to actively abuse whatever arrangement we agree on. I was just we could hoping to avoid, as far as possible, rookie vs 1600+ situations where one party gets completely creamed with so bad an impact that the league loses a player. It's an unlikely scenario, perhaps, but not an impossible one. If we're keeping the season cycle short I doubt too many coaches would get that fatigue of being locked into a team they hate, and that ultimately everything would sort itself out sooner rather than later. But we should try to keep the teething pains to a minimum, if only to ensure we've done what we can to retain the player base and protect the long term health of the thing.

    There's a good chance we'll have some OCC admins on board, right? Might be good to tap them up for help and advice, if we can't offload the responsibility onto the gits outright :p.

    Take some advice from a lifelong pedant, mate. Always triple check if you're about to correct someone!
     
  15. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Lol, you mean that that would not work for your team! :p

    I thought the whole idea was to continue in CCVI with veteran teams from CCV if they so wished so to start team continuation in the CC? CTA teams in addition to that was a later concesion to this in my mind (and I hope only for this first season, CCVI, where we allow veteran teams for the first time), to which I have no objections... as long as these CTA teams had no advantage in terms of number of games played (and thus potential experience acquired) than the CCV teams. For future editions my preference would be that only teams from the previous CC(X-1) should be allowed to continue, no more CTA. Accepting teams from CTA should be just an exception for CCVI.

    If that number in CCV happens to be 9, so be it. Either you have a team with no more games than that under your belt in CCV or CTA or you start a new team. In my mind it is as simple as that. But, hey, that is just maybe me.

    PS: if things get really out of hand trying to decide which teams and, more difficultly, how to arrange the groups fairly for CCVI, then the simplest solution would be to start from scratch (no veterans of any kind whatsoever), everyone new teams again, and from CCVII onwards you can opt to retain your teams from CC(X-1).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  16. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    Well back from holiday and all smurf breaks out. Ahh well. Here is the deal:

    1 There will be no limit on the teams exept that they must have played only in former Crunch Cups or exclusively in the Crunch Them All.
    1a A team from a former CC that has played matches in CTA are still valid to enter CCVI

    2 The seeding will be according to team and coach win %
    2a Matches played does affect this. A win % of 65 over ten matches is seeded better than a team with 100 % but only one match played.
    2b Rookie teams are seeded only on coach win % - no tier 1,2,3 weighting is made.
    2c I shall do the sorting and then present it for my fellow admin for control of errors before you all see it.

    3 If this is a succes we will run with this format untill we think it is not a succes anymore and then change as we have always done:pow:
     
  17. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

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    Bugger off, I've corrected enough of your typos* over the last 5 weeks that you could forgive me one of my own!


    *Actually I can't remember any, but shh...
     
  18. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    So will you be mixing new teams with teams that have played maybe even up to 17 games? Or you plan to split groups somehow?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  19. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    The goal is to have four groups:

    1 = superteams, 2 = not so superteams, but still capable, 3 = Better than rookie teams, 4 = rookie teams.

    Then a division final between 1 & 2 and between 3 & 4 and then a grand finale between those winners to find the grand champion or super cup winners. And yes on a normal day it will probaly be a group 1 or 2 team as overall winners, but then again this is BB so we never know what will happen:D

    Then there will be a periode of desiding to reroll with new teams or continue with existing team. All group winners exept from #1 will move up one group. All woodenspooners from the groups will move down. Perhaps even let it be the top 2 and the buttom 2 that swap places:confused: - Still to be desided.
     
  20. bintz

    bintz Active Member

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    I was thinking about how to sort teams taking into account what everyone said and the system used in the FrancoBowl is quite interesting.

    The more you climb up the divisions, the less group there is in that division. For exemple, division 4 is composed of 4 subdivisions (each divisions is X groups), same with division 3 and 4 subdivs then in division 2 you only have 2 subdivs and finally 1st division which as none subdivs.

    So, for CCVI, instead of having 4 groups corresponding to 4 divisions, we could have 1 group for division 1, 1 for division 2 and a 3rd division with 2 groups. In 3rd division, we could mix rookie and almost-rookie teams.

    If we manage to get 4 groups of 8, you make division 2 into a high risk division:
    * bottom 4 get down (2 in each division 3 group)
    * top 2-4 get up
     
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