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Wood Elf Elves even better at high TV? nonsense

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Viajero, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    So here you have a few replays, against Khemri, Chaos, Ogre and then I have included also Lizardmen and Skaven just in case...

    Elves Got Talent Replays.zip
     
  2. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

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    I'll take a peek at one or two of those as well, thanks for making them public. :)
     
  3. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    I agree that BB Manager is an excellent way to do that. I look at almost every game I play online in BB Manager just for curiosity sake. There have been many games where I have been accused of being lucky when I in fact was less successful on dice rolls than the mean. There have been other games that I thought "Holy crap those have been some good armor/injury rolls" when they were no better or worse than average.
     
  4. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Most of my opponents have been so far of average to newcomer level so take these replays with a pinch of salt... I have been very lucky. The only high ranked one I have encountered so far is the Skaven coach who was ranked at the 600 in Nagg at the time of the match, so that is why I included him in the replay file...

    Blog update:

    Another match up today saw me fight it against Nurgle. The guy was boasting of having made 8 injuries just before to another WE team :D

    His team had a beast and all NW and 3 or 4 (80K!!) Pestigors, which makes it very expensive... as a consequence being matched up with me at the same TV level he did not have almost any blocking skills and of course no MB nor tackle at all... only a couple blocks and claws, plus 1 +ST and 1+AV and an accurate pest (which makes the team even more expensive and pretty much useless against a WE team)... all in all, I thought, no match for my dodge and strip ball. My opponent seemed to have left the game after I started stalling my first defensive TD while fouling his extra arms / accurate pestigor around turn 6 and 7...but he did not concede, just letting the turns go by... :confused:

    Elves Got Talent is now at 160 in the Naggaroth ranking...

    The roster now looks like so:


    Tree: Guard, Break Tackle
    WD1: Tackle, Strip Ball (AV6)
    WD2: Tackle, Strip Ball
    Thrower: Accurate
    LM1: Kick (Niggling)
    LM2: Dodge, Block
    LM3: Dodge
    LM4: Dodge
    LM5: Wrestle, Dodge
    Catcher: Block

    170K, 1 ass. coach, 1 cheer., 3 RR, Apo, 8 FF
    TV 1560 (including JM)



    No dwarves or norse to be seen yet, but it will come, just a matter of time. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  5. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    Matchmaking using TV or the old team rating has always been bad for the elves.

    The strength of all elvish team is the ability to gain SPPs fast and on each players (especially for woodies). TV Matchmaking negates this advantage completely.

    All in all, I'd just stay away from open leagues. Maybe my frustration is talking here. I've been playing elves in the open leagues for many a year, it all boils down to the same issue. The best skill a player can have in open leagues is Armor Value, period. The game is not designed to be fair in such a playstyle, LRB6 is an improvement but still...

    One thing you can do however, is maybe adapt your skill choice to those long leagues. I'm not a big fan of that many dodge as you chose. With woodies, I tend to raise 3-4 lineelves with wrestle/fend. As a rule of thumb, only my blitzers get block (2 WD, and sometimes another line or catcher). Wrestle is superior in all aspects, IMO and fend protects your players oftentimes better than dodge would.

    Sometimes, I wonder if the APO should not be kept for veteran lineelves past a given TV. Sure it hurts to loose a star WD or catcher, but rookie positionals can still get the job done, whereas training a good line elf past 1600 TV is nigh impossible.

    Good luck with your team however. But if you plan on playing at 2000+ TV, get a Chaos team :)
     
  6. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    "... WE teams are always one game away of being fully retired..."

    Wise words indeed. Do not know who first utter them but all serious elf coaches know them well and must live by them. Never complain about injuries.

    But yesterday it was a day to remember... a day even to test that temperance WE coaches must display at all times.

    Without further ado, the team roster is now like so:

    WD1: Tackle, Strib Ball (MNG, -1AV)
    WD2: Tackle Strib Ball (MNG, -1MA)
    Thrower: Accurate
    LM1: Kick (Niggling)
    LM2: Dodge, Block
    LM3: Dodge, Wrestle
    LM4: Dodge
    LM5: Wrestle, Dodge
    Catcher: Block (MNG, -1 ST)

    360K, 1 ass. coach, 1 cheer., 3 RR, Apo, 7 FF
    TV 910 (1340 including JM)

    You may be wondering where is the Tree? Well, I decided to drop it in my last game, to further optimize TV. As you will see I couldnt have picked a worst game to do it. And in hindisght I know now why I like Tree´s: Not only because of their equalizing MB power but also because they are lovely at tying up opponent AG3, ST3 pieces! (ahem, including those that may have MB, Tackle and PO).

    I had 3 games in the last couple of days that really did not go my way.

    The 1st one against a Necro team around the 1000´s in Nagg and whose Coach has another team at the 62 rank in Auld. This team sported only one Golem and not a great skill spread but a massive concentration of SPP´s in the werewolves both at 5 skill ups. One with Block, +MA, +Ag, +AG and Dodge. The other a killer MB, Tackle, Piling On, Block, Dodge. Goes without saying that that PO werewolf had a field day. The coach also played really well but I managed to put up some fight for a 2-1 loss.

    The 2nd one should have been mine, but was not. I found my first dwarves team! He had a TV bloater DeathRoller so no MB or Piling On in sight. Although this coach happens to have a couple of teams around the 100 rank mark in Auld and Imperial I was not impressed by his moves and it was only because of a key die rolls in the decisive moments that he managed to pull off the draw, 1-1.

    The first half saw me staging a classic double line elven stalling defense line that ended up stopping his drive via a good chain push of his cage that left exposed the carrier and ready for me to do a 2 dice blitz on him. Managed to get the ball and get into a position to score... my carrier had dodge and his marker did not have tackle... I only needed a 3+ with the dodge reroll. Fail! Shame as that would have assured the win.

    The second half started with a Blitz! event for my opponent´s enjoyment but I managed to defend the ball and stall the score until turn15... game over I thought at that point, as I had 9 players to defend with the last 2 turns. But Alas it was not meant to be.

    He only had 2 players in score range in turn 16, bot of them with 2 GFI required. I blitzed one down and screened the other. Then went into marking the thrower in the back field plus another lino to screen any potential dodging... well, my dwarf opponent managed to pull off 2 dodges, a long pass and a hand off to ag2 players, another dodge and 2 gfi for the equalizer with no rerolls in hand... got to hate it when that happens... ;)

    The 3rd game was the really interesting one...

    Matched up against a an Orc team whos Coach had ranked at an unasuming 2000 or thereabouts rank in Nagg. What was not unasuming though was the team itself...

    Blitzer1:MB, Piling on, Tackle
    Blitzer2: MB, Tackle
    Blitzer3: Dodge, Guard
    Blitzer4: MB
    BO1: Block
    BO2: Block
    BO3 and BO4 unskilled
    Thrower: unskilled
    Troll: Guard
    LM1: Wrestle, Fend
    LM2: unskilled

    Oh well...I said to myself. 4 MB and tackle aplenty plus that PO...ok, pull yourself together, I ve seen worst. Nothing I can not beat surely if played well. Ahem.
    Turn1: I choose to kick as always good to defend with a full team. Kicked deep and the ball lands 2 o3 squares from a corner. My opponent then does not move back a few players to protect the pick up and only approaches one of the blitzers and the thrower who does not get to the ball yet. Troll goes really stupid.

    He also blitzes ... my cacther as the first target (my 3-4-4 defense has in the last row both WD, the thrower and the kick player so the catcher had to be exposed) with Blitzer1. Result: MNG and -1 ST. Dont use the apo. Oh well. My turn now so I do not blink and seeing the ball far from his LOS main strength I blitz one piece out oif the way and go deep with a WD and 2 LM (blodge and wrodge) managing to mark the trower and moving my other WD who was behind the downed catcher out of the way to (and as) safety.

    Turn2: he blitzes my marking LM with a MB blitzer and then the thrower picks up the ball but stays there protected by the blitzer. My loner LM that I did not move last turn (just stand up after LOS hits) gets hit by a BO and MNG. Troll goes again really stupid. Oh well, turn 2 and 2 pieces down... not the end of the world, so far so good.

    I then I proceed to blitz the Blitzer covering the carrier ad mark the carrier itself again with my WD. Since the carrier has not yet moved from the back field and most of my opponent pieces are quite far from him I decide to prepare for the kill (or so I thought) and committ a few more pieces to screen the rest of his team. I also decide (very wrongly and against my own principles) to mark the Troll with my other WD, just to make sure the carrier can not be helped.

    All looks relatively up doesnt it? Well now is precisely where the plot starts to twist.

    Turn 3: Blitzer 2 wakes up, escapes my screen dodges and blitzes my carrier-marking WD with a result of MNG and -1MA... well, not finished yet: Enter the Troll.

    Troll does not go stupid this time, blocks, WD dead. Apo? -1AV. Yay man, both WD in the same turn? There is always a first for everything. Shit. Nevertheless he decides to still not move the carrier and (finally) brings back a few more pieces from the LOS to start forming the cage.

    My turn, since I still have my blodge and wrodge linos nearby I then proceed to 1 die blitz the unskilled carrier with the wrodge lino. Ball goes down, my blodge lino walks in at a laisurely pace, picks up and walks in to TD. 1-0 on defense but at what price!

    Turn4: I only now have 6 pieces left, MNG and KO all counted together, so I form at the LoS the best I can and wait for the onslaught. Orcs block, another KO at the LoS... I only have in the field now the blodge, the 2 wrodge linos, the thrower and the loner... Orc player blitzes and.... one of my wrodge players goes MNG. :rolleyes:

    From there on the rest of the 1st half is just a walk for the Orc player, sprinkled with a few more elf MNG and KO here and there, who goes on to scoring the equalizer before the end of it.

    Second half starts with me having only 5 players thanks to some KO recovering and receiving the ball, yay! ahem.

    I try to pull a fast one on the wing but fail miserably my dodge MNG myself in the process to my opponents delight who goes then onto scoring the 2-1 on turn 13.

    And now is where the "good" part begins: Have you ever scored with just 2 elves in the field against a full 11 orc team? Well I just have. :D With just a dodge player carrying the ball I managed to 1 die blitz my way out of marking in my back yard, cover all the field avoding blocks and marking as if the Orc team was never there and score the equalizer on turn 16... 2-2. Elves Got Talent is now at around 500 rank in Nagg.
    I really recommend the replay, those last 3 turns are really something. Never mind the injury fest.

    Replay_2011-01-28_21-22-39.db

    After lookin the match with BBManager it is clear now that this coach had quite a bit of luck with both the armor rolls and the injury rolls while I did not. Not that I had many players to block with during the game no, but still.

    Asuming all armour rolls where natural (which they were not) and that he had all those injury rolls made with a +1 MB player (which he did not) then chances of an MNG injury are 10 in 36 (a result of 9, 10, 11 and 12 in the injury table) or 27%. Well, he got almost 50%, half of the 17 injury rolls he made in the game ended up in a MNG. Correspondingly simply stunned results should have been 15/36 (a result of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, again asuming those rolls made with a +1 from a MB player) or 41%, well I only got 4 stunned out of 17 injury rolls which is only around 23%.

    But as I said, I am not complaining! These are just facts:D

    Im still debating what to purchase for next game. Since one of my WD was nearing the 3rd skill up anyways I ll probably drop her now and hire a new one. And leave the -MA to recover for next games. Then probably buy the tree again unskilled so my TV reduced by 40 and a new catcher... what do you guys think?

    I am going to probably stick to playing this team for at least 20 or 30 games to see what would be teh performance on the medium term. I was fully expecting losses and or injuries, and will probably encounter a few more MB-Tackle-PO temas in the way, but my believe still is that these should not be the majority (so far only 2 out of 14) therefore hopefully giving my TV under 1600 team chances to do better than at higher TV´s...
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2011
  7. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    Well, if you are planning on playing low TV until you get the foundation of a great team, I'd get another Lino. You definitely need at least to guards, so keep hiring/sacking them until you get your doubles.
    Both WD will be given the boot in due time as well.
     
  8. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Elves got Talent continue their march below the 1600TV, now at around 1480. Following the previous couple defeats I have now managed to win my last 4 games, including a victory over the (at the time) 137th in Nagaroth (Chora-cra) leading an Orc team with a couple Tackle and one MB but no PO (Team name Skara Hoercal).

    Team is now with 14-2-3 and around the 300 rank, and so far the theory of survability at higher ranks but at low TV's is holding reasonably steady... 2 teams with a MB-Tackle-PO out of almost 20 seems to be acceptable.

    I ve droped one RR in exchange of Leader in my Thrower to further optimize TV:

    Tree: Guard,
    WD1: Tackle, Strip Ball (MA7)
    WD2: Tackle, Strip Ball
    Thrower: Accurate, Leader
    LM1: Kick (Niggling, -1AV)
    LM2: Dodge, Block
    LM3: Dodge, Wrestle
    LM4: Unskilled
    Catcher: Block

    140K, 1 ass. coach, 1 cheer., 2 RR, Apo, 9 FF
    TV 1480 (including 2 JM's)
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2011
  9. biLLy

    biLLy Member

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    Hi Viajero,

    Im playing also a WE team in Nagg in the similar way you are doing it, not sure how far I will be able to reach, but with some differences I would like to point out. This is my roster actually:

    Team: Blooded Roses (4-0-0)
    Treeman - Block
    WD1 - Strip ball, Tackle
    WD2 - +1Mov, +1Str (a 9-4-4-7 blodge beast with leap, I really love this guy)
    Catcher - +1 Mov
    LM - Wrestle
    LM - Dodge
    6xLM naked or with a few spps.
    1 apo
    2xRR

    So far Im following the same tactis as you, but Im playing a bit different: my woodies are runners, and indeed they do it... With a catcher and a WD running 9 squares almost nothing can keep them toe to toe, I dont use to pass unless there is no more chances, and even in those situations, I almost always try to do it hand off.

    Ive played also against hard teams: My first team against was a Norse who I just cleared it, lot of injs. Then I went against a Necro team, hard but not fast enough because I managed to inj his goul early on, and the ww were cake without any skill.

    The third match was against an undead team, oh god I though I was fked up when I saw it was 130k induced, I hired a thrower and praised for a good match, and indeed it was, I managed to knock down 1 mummy in first half and fouled him out (with my fouler), and in second half my tree bounced the bandages of the other mummy, so things went much easier from then to finish.

    My fourth match was against Skavens and man, that was the match I though I would lost, since he had 4 GR, 1 blodge sidestepper (his star) and another two with blodge/wredge. I had his sidesteper blocked 2dice at least 3 times, all of them was push (I was blocking with my tackle WD), no way that fucking bitch. He also tried to 1turn TD me twice, but good placing my lines and normal rolls made him fail. Also I managed to inj his rat ogre, those big rats are awesome. It ended in a fair 2-1 for me, just playing cat-mouse in the second half, caging and moving both sides of the pitch, and rats moving trying to prevent me moving ahead... But finally things went normal, and I did score.

    So far my team is about 1300ish, not very high and I will try to keep it as low as yours, even more if I want to evade those killers teams. Sooner or later my player will die, so I hope it is later.

    Thnx for your blog Viajero, me ha gustado mucho :)

    Any comments/feedback about my skills picking choices and others would be welcomed.

    Cheers.
     
  10. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Glad you enjoyed it!

    And will probably take this opportunity to close the experiment. After my last post I had a couple more victories that left me around the 200 rank in Naggaroth, with a solid team throught around 25 games

    All in all Id say the experiment was a fair success having remained at those rank levels all along and only encountering MB+Tackle+PO teams in just 2 ocassions. The top level I reached was around 150 IIRC.

    So, keeping the TV under the 1500 TV seems to be a way to make elves stay at the high spots in a consistent manner. Shame though that this bloody TV based MM system make you want to do that in order to stay competitive in the long run.

    MM should not be based on TV... but that is a different story.


    Now, regarding your team Billy, if my maths are correct your TV value should be already around the 1380 - 1400 so getting real close to the limit. The team looks really good, but the "weakness" (if you can call it that) I see is that if you are trying to stay below the 1500 TV then you have not much more room to skill up your Linos (specially if you add a RR and/or keep on winnning the next few games as FF will add some more burden to your TV) and will have to make do with "naked" Linos. Which may not be an issue if your supper runners can deliver consistently.

    Also, I see no Kick skill!! With those MA9 runners Kick can give you some spectacular victories by you snatching the ball soon after kicking it deep, specially after a Blitz! event.

    In addition, 2 RR may be a bit on the low side for my taste, specially without Leader in the team, although this may not be a big issue if you do not play a passing game where you would probably burn rerolls (no thrower and only one catcher).

    The way I see it is that you are a bit too dependant on that WD. Once he is KO or worst your team may (maybe not) suffer a bit as you seem to be used to play a running game probably with that WD as the key element to either carry the ball or to use it as spearhead for the most part. For my experiment I relied on having a more balanced approach where I could use both running and passing plays and so no player would stand out and I was not relying on specific star individuals. But hey. Your way of doing things may be even more efficient, who knows.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  11. biLLy

    biLLy Member

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    Actually the team is at 1280TV because 1 MNG Lineman, so that would place me in the 1350TV next match.

    Considering the roster, I think I will try to keep 3-4 LM naked, 2 to stay at LOS (spendable) near the tree, and one-two more for fouling, that is trying to develope 2-3 more LMs. Considering normal rolls that is a plus of 40-60 more in TV with 2 skills, then I would sack them and hire a new LM.

    That would make me hit the 1400ish, add another player I will add when I got money enough (probably a thrower) and it will be the 1500ish. Of course I will try to add leader instead of RR, and optimize, but yeah, I will do my best to keep the team below 1500TV.

    I will sack any player who hits lvl3 except that WD, yeah, I really love him, Im not much attached to that player just because av7, I know one day he will meet a killer and he will be destroyed, but I will enjoy his life as long as it will be :) Plan is to add tackle as next skill, maybe MB/Guard if doubles, and overpass any other stat I would get it.

    I dont have much time to play so it will take a while to play 25 matches, actually Ive played 4 and so far the teams looks like awesome for these low ammount of games :)

    Cheers and tnx for answer.
     
  12. ickey

    ickey Member

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    I recently started a Wood Elf team in the Naggaroth league and am really enjoying it! I think I have 4 wins and a draw now.

    I actually started with 3 rerolls, 1 WD, 1 Catcher, and 9 Linemen. Worked pretty well for me. I only just replaced an injured Lineman with the second WD.

    The best thing that ever happened to me is rolling +1 ST on the Wardancer. She is unstoppable for opponents who don't have Guard! You just mark a couple of cage corners to negate their assists, jump into the cage and hammer the ball carrier.

    I don't expect she'll live very long, but I'm enoying her while it lasts!