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Slann / Kislev Circus End Goal Slann - Not a Blitzer Fan

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Mr. Ghoti, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    Hey guys, I've used this site extensively over the years, but this is my first time using and posting in the forum.

    I'm part of a small local 9 player league on BB2, and I've picked up the frogs after exclusively playing lizardmen. I love them a ton, and i haven't lost yet, scoring at least twice each game. I do, however, hate the slann blitzers. I believe they are too expensive for the tricks they bring, and bloat TV way past what is necessary. I fully understand that a proberly leveled blitzer is a god on the pitch, and has the all important Strength access for leaping guard, but I just can't stomach the cost. They need at least 2-3 skills before truly becoming useful (outside of just marking a ball carrier with diving tackle), so I've instead filled my line with linefrogs, catchers, and a krox.

    I'm one of the better players in my league, but I still have choice paralysis upon leveling up. So I made myself a guide I'm trying my hardest to follow when one of my players levels up, eventually leading to near a 1750 team. All without blitzers.

    Take a look over this and tell me what needs to change, this isn't much of a long term league, but if I like the team enough and if they don't all die to chaos warriors I can continue running them in the next league.

    Here's what i currently have on my team:
    4 RR
    Apothecary
    Some odd amount of fan factor
    Bear
    Catcher with dodge about to level up
    Catcher with AG5
    Catcher about to level up
    Rookie catcher
    4 Rookie linemen
    Lineman about to level up
    Lineman with strip ball about to level up

    Many players are within 1 successful action of leveling up.

    And here's what my end goal looked like, without blitzers I need to hope for doubles for guard, and pass is just nice to have:

    5 RR
    Apothecary
    Bear with block and stand firm
    2 catchers with blodgestep
    2 catchers with sure hands and pass/NoS
    Lineman with kick/dirty player
    2 linemen with guard/wrestle
    2 linemen with wrestle/strip ball
    2 linemen with wrestle/fend

    I know a lot of people recommend taking guard as a double on catchers for their 2+ leap, but I'm afraid they will be punched into the dirt if they do that. And on top of that it requires a SECOND catcher to be nearby in order to get the ball back out of the cage.
     
  2. stephB

    stephB Well-Known Member

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    I am no expert on Slann, but having 5RR is a lot of bloat right there, which might free up room for a blitzer or two.
     
  3. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    I'm normally comfortable with just 4 RR, but the added security is nice. It's an end goal. Besides the 50k it frees up isn't enough for a blitzer.

    The real question is whether or not the goal is a sound plan, or should i strive for something else?
     
  4. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Basically that looks sound apart from a couple if things. 1st you have no tackle anywhere, I would get that before fend on a wrestle lino. Second I really don't like NoS on a catcher. They already have diving catch to catch in 1 tz on a 2+ and usually if you have them as receivers they get blitzed and fouled anyway. Pass is not a bad choice.
     
  5. Coach Cool

    Coach Cool New Member

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    May I ask why your Guard linos have Wrestle and not Block? I would think that it is better to have them standing than being prone?

    And having Block also gives you a chance to knock players over (that doesn't have Block obviously). I think 4 guys with Wrestle and 3 with Block (if you can roll that double for your Bear) would be better.

    But perhaps you have a good reason for choosing Wrestle on all linos?
     
  6. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    Wrestle counters block. The main reason for taking block, aside from having an extra opportunity to knock down an opponent is to stay standing yourself. With wrestle you can remove their skill essentially. Your opponent will lose their tackle zones, have restricted movement, will be in a prime place for fouling, and it discourages taking a both down result.

    On the offense it also gives you an extra die result to take down blodge sure hands ball carriers. Normally you would need a defender down result to get them to drop the ball, but with wrestle you now have 2 results that will dislodge the ball.

    In short, on defense it removes tackle zones from block players when my guys can easily stand up and walk past them, and on offense drops blodge players more often. You won't be rolling armor for them, but you arent suffering turnovers, you can still foul the player on the ground, and your opponent will be forced to take more pushes, comboing nicely with fend for essentially a free dodge away.

    Additionally on the point of guard, if someone is trying to remove my guard corner in a cage or on a ball carrier to put their own player there, having their player on the ground essentially does the same thing as guard in that instance. Instead of adding an assist on my end, I'm removing one from theirs.
     
  7. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    Some good points but your last one doesn't really work.
    If they blitz the cage corner and you wrestle them down they can move 2 players in to stand next to your ballcarrier meaning you need to work to clear them away or risk a leap away.
    If he has block then he would still be standing there so they can't get in and he can block next turn rather than standing up to give the guard assist.

    So while I would take wrestle on a normal roll as a 1st skill on a lineman if I had a double for guard 1st then the 2nd skill would be block.

    Also if you have linemen in a group your opponent will generally block the guard one 1st. Wrestling him down makes it easier to get 2D hits on the rest of your players. If he stays up it makes it harder for them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  8. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    I see what you mean. Alright I'll modify my list for that.

    I made a custom high TV team in BB2 to test out some blitzers and I absolutely love them, especially with blodgestep and guard. But they are SO expensive and it would be impossible to keep them alive long enough to get them to that level, especially in a normal league. So I'm resigning myself to stick with the general versatility of linefrogs and hope for doubles.

    1750
    Apo
    4rr
    3 linos with wrestle/fend
    2 linos with wrestle/strip ball/tackle
    Lino with kick
    2 blitzers with block/dodge/sidestep/guard
    2 catchers with block/dodge
    2 catchers with sure hands/pass
     
  9. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Mr. Ghoti !

    I'm not a Slann/Kislev expert by any means, but I like to play around with rosters and theorize a bit, so I'll share my observations. I think that 2 Blitzers is probably the sweet spot, so I like your roster in that regard. They are extremely useful as you pointed out to provide that Guard, and deny the opponent room if/when they make it to Blodgestep. I would probably want to skill them up one at a time, only buying the next one when the first has at least two skills. This way I believe you can make it to two Blitzers in a reasonable amount of time.

    For the Catchers, I don't like the Pass pick on a double. I think I understand the general idea behind it (jump in, pick up the ball, then pass it to a free player), but if you want to make that sequence more reliable, I think NOS is better. Putting the sequence into Samba Action Calculator, I get:

    1 TZ: 73% with Pass, 77% with NOS
    2 TZ: 52% with Pass, 65% with NOS

    The difference is only going to favour NOS more the more tackle zones you put on that ball. So I'd say get NOS if you want a specialist for that pickup -> pass play. I don't think you need more than one, though, on another double on a Catcher I'd be looking strongly at Guard.

    As for the Linos: I think it's unrealistic to think you'll have 6 out of 6 skilled Linos at any point in time. You're going to have 2 or 3 decently skilled Linos, and then you will have LOS fodder. Sure, if your LOS fodder is getting really, really lucky and skills up, then Wrestle/Fend will make them more resilient LOS fodder. But I think if you want to outline how to build a Slann/Kislev team, calculating for this many skilled Linos gives you the wrong impression. More realistically, those 3 Linos will be unskilled - which means you have 120k TV freed up and can get a bear on the roster! That added muscle will allow you to hold the line better, both offensively and defensively.

    Finally, when calculating the total TV, don't forget the Fan Factor. If you build this team in a real league over time, chances are you'll have around 80k to 100k in Fan Factor on top of your total. Just a thing to keep in mind when you compare your build to other teams in the league.
     
  10. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    I totally agree with all of your points. Hell, even just skilling up my team so far in the league has thrown me off mymy plan, but it's still nice to have a general idea of where you want your guys to end up at, hence the thread.

    One of my catchers already got +AG for that sweet sweet AG5. He'll be taking sure hands next, 2+ pickups in 1 TZ or 3+ in 2 TZ with a reroll will be fantastic. Then maybe dodge to get out after a leap or nerves on a double.
     
  11. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    Alright just had my most recent game against some nasty goblins, nearly ended in a tie, but a failed pick up, an interception from a troll, and a risky pass later and I came out on top.

    I now have 2 strip ball linefrogs, a break tackle bear, a blodge catcher, 2 dodge catchers, and the purpose of the update, an AG5 catcher that just rolled doubles.

    The worst thing he could roll. I cannot decide what to give him now.

    The original plan was to give him sure hands for pick ups being excellent in cages. 2+ with a reroll in 1 tackle zone, 3+ in 2 TZ, 4+ In 3 TZ.

    Pass for excellent reliability

    accurate for longer passes

    Nerves of steel for passes out of cages after pickups

    Or guard for cage sacking. But he has the all important AG5 but NO defensive skills yet. Yet guard is super important for slann, and catchers are best with 2+ leaps.

    Toss up for me between sure hands, guard, and nerves of steel/accurate
     
  12. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    AG5 changes things a lot. NOS becomes less valuable, Dodge becomes more valuable (and for the same purpose that NOS would have fulfilled, i.e. "move the ball onwards after you steal it"). Sure Hands is still valuable, has increased in value slightly perhaps. I don't like Accurate - yes, it would allow you to make long passes on a 2+, but do you really need those extra squares? I'm not sure, I would need to have more experience playing Slann to say with confidence whether such a strong passing play is something you're looking for with the team.

    For me the only double skill worth considering is Guard, but it pales in comparison with Dodge, which is exactly the skill this player needs right now.
     
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  13. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    I've been running my slann two ways really: kick the ball first and break the ball carrier in the cage, then jump a catcher in to get the ball out, which is where sure hands would be great. Picking up on a 3+ with a reroll while the ball is still in 2 TZ sounds phenomenal

    And then on offense rushing 2 catchers and linemen as blockers for a passing 2TTD where the AG5 and pass/accurate would help.

    Haven't thought much on dodge. Yes it would make his running in and out easier, and keep him on his feet more, but i wanted to do something more with his AG5 than just dodging.

    So im down to sure hands to capitalize on free balls, dodge for defense, and guard for 2+ leaping assists (he would just become a multi-role catcher I suppose)
     
  14. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I would want him to end up with block , dodge and sure hands.

    He is not going to be doing much blocking/blitzing so dodge is nearly as good as block for protection.
    He is going to be doing a lot of dodging so the reroll will come in handy multiple times each game.
    He is going to be picking the ball around 3 times a match on average so the reroll from sure hands will be used once every 1 or 2 matches.
    He is going to be getting rid of the ball once he has retrieved it so the strip ball protection from sure hands isn't going to be relevant very often.

    So I would get Dodge 1st , Sure Hands 2nd and Block 3rd.
     
  15. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    The other issue is that we are on game 5 of 11. A fairly short league. I'm sure if we just reset the league we would be able to carry over our old teams, but for this upgrade right now I'm looking for the most short term return.

    Normally though I absolutely agree with blodge then either sure hands, sidestep, or catch for a normal piece.

    This guy is just developing far beyond what is normal or expected and i feel i should capitalize on that. For instance slann have no thrower positional. With AG5 and a doubles I could easily turn him into a mean piece.
     
  16. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    My next opponent is wood elves he lost all of his linemen in his first game with halflings (it was incredible to watch), and has 2 wardancers, 2 catchers, and a treeman. All the others are journeymen. I think im just going to get guard on my catcher. I'm not 100% sure on what all his wardancers have, but if one has blodge and sure hands I need pows to remove the ball from one. I have 2 strip ballers but no wrestle or tackle yet. So i think i NEED that 2d block to try and wrench the ball out.
     
  17. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    I doubt he will have sh on a wardancer but who knows
     
  18. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    He is far more likely to have strip ball but ST2 sure hands isn't much use against a strip ball dancer anyway so you will just have to accept that he can leap in and knock the ball loose. You can do the same so it could be an interesting game.
     
  19. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

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    I chose guard and got my game in against the wood elves. Just about everything went wrong for me. First kickoff threw a rock and kocked out my AG5 guard catcher, who stayed down all game. Then despite good positioning every other kickoff event for him was perfect defense. Lastly every time a catcher wanted to do a 2+ action I would roll a 1. Looked at the statistics after the game, i rolled 27 1's when the average was 17.

    2+ leap away from a wardancer? Fail. 2+ single GFI for a TD? Fail. 2+ handoff next to a tree? Fail, reroll. Leap away from the tree? Fail. Dead blodge catcher, apothecary reroll into another death.

    Each 2+ failure meant a score for the elves. I didn't break his armor once. I lose handedly, get 10k for earnings. I go to replace my dead catcher, accidentally hire a lineman instead.

    Bad day. At least now i have wrestle and strip ball on one of my linemen, but I'm up against chaos followed by flings, then chaos again. Not a fun day for me.
     
  20. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Ouch that's rough - with Slann you are always somewhat reliant on dice unfortunately