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Cyanide Extended Inducements - Why the Hate?

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Thanatos, May 27, 2011.

  1. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    In most Leagues I play in we use Extended Inducements.
    I think they add a lot to the game and really help the underdog achieve parity.
    Surely that is a good thing :cool:

    With the exception of Bloodweiser Babes, all the non-Extended Inducements are >= 100k.
    So if I have 90k in inducements I only get to spend 50k of it and I get absolutely no help on the playing pitch. :(

    With Extended Inducements in the same scenario I could get a St Potion; a Babe and Ag Potion; or 2x Ag Potions.
    Of course you could take potions and they may fail and suddenly you are left with nothing.
    Of course the Potions are all gambles (they almost never work for me ;) ), but so are such things as Wizards and Chefs.
    But are they really that unbalancing?

    Some arguments I've seen are that it isn't thematic for Skaven to be getting Strength or Khemri to get Agility.
    But all these teams can get these things from skill rolls anyway so thematic has nothing to do with it.

    I realise that TV management is part of the game, but surely this added element can be fun for the TV Managers?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
  2. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    I think they are fine. They are not imbalancing in my opinion. Granted, the +agility pot is a fairly good bargain, but so are bloodweiser babes. I think one weakness of standard inducements are that they only come in 50k gradations and there are not many good cheap options. They do add a little more luck to the game.

    They are not canon as many of the other rules. I think that a substantial portion of the disapproval stems from that.

    I think it also opens up some interesting strategy options. To wit:

    1) Come in starting down 10k, put in 50k.
    2) Opponent gets agility potion, thinks you are getting a babe
    3) You actually choose "I've got my eye on you" on his two likely ball carriers
    4) Both are ejected

    It's like mind games - I like it.
     
  3. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Well dont get me started! :D This is a thorny issue.

    I ll tell you a few reasons why extended inducements should not be used. It is not just about "being canon or not", that is irrelevant for me. For me teh issue is that I really believe most of them are completely unabalanced, specially for one-off or straight elimination matches.

    The LRB and competition rules have been developed over decades and finetune to achieve some semblance of balanced effect. Cyanide came in and in a couple of months produced a few crappy ideas completely untested and out of a farting brain, just because "it´s fun". Come on.

    - Rechargeable wizard: a single wizard can already easily be a game changer if used appropiately. Now what would you say if you copuld have more than 1 ina game, for the same price! It just recharges with time!

    - Increased stats potions: Let´s say the +Ag one, which gives you for peanuts basically the chance to increase +Ag a piece of your choice. That is completely nuts. Imagine a Khemri team using this? The basiest of teams has been properly designed with Ag2 precisely to balance that tremendous hitting power. All of a sudden that team not only kills but also can handle the ball? You gotta be kidding me.

    The worst part is that it only costs 40K! Everyone has 40K available, whereby to have a real +Ag normally you first need a proper skill up and then you need to have a 6+5 in the roll which is something I´d say is much much less probable than the 58% of the bloody potion. Plus! a skill up roll of 5+6 is totally random and you never know who is going to get it, while the potion allows you to select the chosen one at will... hmm what about giving it to my ST4 AG3 Blodge Chaos Warrior? Hmm all of a sudden you have an almost unbeatable ball carrier that can do wonders with the ball.


    - False positive drugs testing (so to eliminate a key opponent piece): This is also BS. The amount of money you pay for this is ridiculous and the chance of removing that hard fought piece you have developed and is key for your upcoming game is not negligeable.

    As a comparison the special cards deck rules, already contemplated in the competition rules have the following:

    An additional wizard equivalent in the cards costs you a minimum of 200K (Ballista card or the Mine card) in the Random Events Deck and it is 2 random cards among a total 18 cards!... with Cyanide extended stuff it is simply for free, because you are just worth it!

    The J of shamrock, which is the card that allows you to remove an opponent from the game requires the non negligeable amount of 400K in induction money!... and in addition the card is random among other 7 in the so called "Desperate Measures Deck".

    Also, as far as I remember there is not a single card which gives oyu +Ag. Well there is one but it also gives oyu the "No hands" negatrait. Nevertheless, this card is also 400K and random among those other 7.

    As I said before, I believe these extended stuff is an aberration of nature, a cheap and pisspoor idea from Cyanide that probably came out with it in a drunken night out because tehy did not want or knew how to implement teh special cards deck rules.

    Bottom line? If you push me I could maybe not mind using them in a group phase of a league (one day I ll be affected by them, the next it will be my opponent... maybe fine), but in knock outs, play offs or otherwise one match straight elimination games where you win or die for me it is a clear No-No.

    Maybe I am just bitter because I have lost 2 semifinals in consecutive seasons of one of the biggest Spanish online leagues because of the bloody extended inducements used in a match that is all or nothing (semifinals). Once because the guy could throw a 2nd wizard lightning that could have otherwise allowed me the win, and the other one because the Khemri team I confronted could do whatever he liked with 2 (two!) Ag3 thro-ras.

    Come on.

    IMHO.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  4. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

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    That's the main thing in my opinion. They turn the game from Blood Bowl to a game based on Blood Bowl for no real reason. I also dislike that they seem to have been implemented at the expense of the special play cards, which I think are great fun. Plus I think that any AG potion should be more than 40k.

    But don't get me wrong, I don't mind there being player-made variations to the game for special occasions. I've really enjoyed playing Squig Bowl and Dungeonbowl in the past, for example, and I always wanted to try out some extra rules for referees that I found somewhere. I'd just prefer to keep regular competitions to the normal rules. I'm also aware that a lot of people do like them, so if they are included in CCV I won't be complaining (aloud :p).
     
  5. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    This is a major part of it. There was a big initial backlash when the inducement system was suggested to being implemented that it will take away from team building.

    A TV difference of 40k has never in any version of the rules granted the "underdog" anything and its not been a problem.

    Inducements were carefully constructed, especially at the low TV difference end to not take away from team building and also not allow coaches to keep their TV low so they could use inducements to tailor their team to the opposition. While you can still slightly do that to a degree with inducements, being able to pick low cost stat boosts (and god knows what else, I've no interest in unofficial addons) that you may need for that match flies against the whole playtesting and deliberate pricing of the official inducements.

    They just encourage min maxing and is not what the rules were designed to do.

    Inducements were meant to give any team a chance in a game against any other team. Low TV differences have not been a problem at all. Fumbbl had a 40 difference cap cause there was a minute chance for low TR teams to compete previously as the handicap system was useless. LRB5 introduced inducements so that large online freeplay leagues could ditch this artificial cap and just let any two teams play a match where both had a chance. However Cyanide/Focus ignored this and copied Fumbbl and afaik Fumbbl still has this artificial cap and is ignoring the rules that were introduced to counter this.

    There were two paths to inducements, some offering protection and survival as a priority and others aimed at giving a greater competitive edge. An underdog coach could then tailor the inducements they chose based on what their personal aim in their upcoming match was. Granting free stuff to relatively balanced teams wasn't needed by the rules which is why there isn't much choice below 100k TV difference.

    Those are the reasons I don't like them and elect not to participate in anything that uses them.
     
  6. Stryke

    Stryke Member

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    It's Agi pots that get me incensed, especially for how cheap they are. They might, emphasis might be ok if it was a random player but to pick a specific one to get extra agi is game breaking.
     
  7. Vusfnuv

    Vusfnuv Member

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    I 100% agree with the last 3 posts.
    The original inducement system has been balanced carefully by professionals after lost of years of work and thouthands of championships. It's a part of the game and it's balance.
    The cyanide inducement system is much less balanced and BB (team rosters, player sstats, etc) just was not designed to use it.
    Let us play the Blood Bowl, not the Cyanide Bowl.
     
  8. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Even the chance, however slight, to get bonus agility on the player of your choice for 40k is just too much.

    I'm not in theory against the idea of temporary stat increases but I'd expect them to cost upwards of 150k. I don't agree that the fact they might not work balances them out, because under normal rules a team at 40k under their opponents would never normally get an advantage anyway, so effectively just giving them a free shot at making any player of their choice immensely more effective is pretty crazy.
     
  9. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    In a non-serious league like im happy to have extended inducements. I agree the agility potion is overpowered and the potion testing counter is broken, but it adds some variety to the game. I especially like the weird wizards that they have for each race. Some are so useless, but fun to try out nevertheless.

    I dont begrudge Cyanide at all for including it and i dont know why anybody would. If you dont like it, just turn the option off or dont play in leagues that have it. Simple as that.
     
  10. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    I played with a brand new Dwarf team the other day against a high TV Pro Elf team. I had 530k in inducements.
    I got a Wizard, a Chef and 2 Ag potions.
    One of the potions didn't work; the other on a Blitzer didn't really affect game play except for a dodge or two (which may have succeeded anyway I don't remember the die rolls).
    The wizard rolled a 1 for Lightning Bolt and the Chef stole all 3 opponents Rerolls in the first half and 2 in the second. Game ended as a 0-0 Draw by the way.

    So of all these inducements the Original Chef was the most powerful!
    The Ag Potions and Wizard were all meaningless in this game.
    But they could have had a huge effect in other games; its their randomness that is surely the balancing factor.


    If the Ag Potion (which seems to be the main point of contention) was banned would people allow the other inducements?
    Not that I think any of the other inducements are as cool.
    One of the other ones I think is kinda cool is the -1 Opponent Reroll for 100k.

    I'm not sure how unbalanced the Ag potions really are though. 40k is how much +1Ag would add to your TV anyway isn't it?
    I've never been bitten by them so to speak. They can be a great equaliser for teams.

    If these inducements were play tested further and proved to be balanced, would people still object to them?

    But this goes on anyway doesn't it?

    I've played numerous games in the Crunch Cup where I would have had 100k in inducements but my opponent has fired a Cheerleader or something to reduce what inducements I can get.
    I'm not complaining that people do this, its part of the game, but if we were playing extended inducements then I would still get to spend my 90k of inducement money instead of being forced to only play with 50k of it.

    **********-*************

    Perhaps we could trying playing one Crunch Cup with them turned on and we can see how often they actually come up.

    Though the Racial Scrolls are completely unbalanced (in that some are useless and others are way too good for the same cost), you won't get any argument from me there.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  11. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    There always has been a certain amount of min maxing but it can be taken to a level too far. Sure a 40k potion for +AG works the same but against some races you need it more than others. Having a proper +AG increase means you always have that on the player and can't drop that TV in order to be able to get a more tailored inducement vs your next opponent.

    All the inducements (apart from perhaps the wizard) have been overpriced to minimise that impact, getting a specific stat increase on a specific player is a very powerful thing. It isn't that it is unbalancing (well not any more than a player naturally getting +AG) it is that it takes away from team building which was something inducements were built in order to try and avoid. The idea is that it makes min maxing less desirable and that it doesn't disadvantage those coaches who are trying to build their teams up. Unfortunately using TV as a way to match up opponents has done exactly that, not that this is an issue in private leagues unless they also do the same.

    I'm not against extra inducements as a principle, I'm against the way cyanide just decided to add them when they don't really understand the core of the inducement system.

    Also playing by the official rules keeps things far more universal, no one gets any extra surprises.
     
  12. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    For sure +agi is better for some races than others.

    An Ag 5 wardancer is a scary thing, as they can get just about anywhere on a 2+
    Ag 4 skinks are pretty nasty too, for a similar reason.
    And an AG 3 throwra or blitzra is absolutely gold for Khemri.
    AG 5 catchers for wood elves are 4+ with a catch RR for an interception.

    An agi 4 dwarf blitzer is just kinda nice. I have 2 agi 4 orc blitzers in my CCIV team and they are quite handy. Managed a sack I would not have tried with an agi 4 player last time (2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 1d block, 3+ 3+ 2+ 2+ 1d block is a lot harder).

    The biggest problem is that they are not that balanced. I think 100K to take away an opponents RR is perfectly fine. The potions are powerful though, and possibly too random.

    If we want to add them then at the very least I would like to see a list of all of them.

    str potion, 60k 26% of +1 str
    agi potion 40k 46% of +1 agi
    dope test 20k

    -1 RR for opponent 100K

    I am pretty sure there are some more. The cheering fans and rioting fans affect the wizard recharge I think, but that is the point I don't know what they do, and it is not documented anywhere I have seen.
     
  13. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    True that! I maybe went a bit too far personnaly onto Cyanide there... but it is just an instinctive reaction from me to all the crappy support in general they ve given to this wonderful game. As much as I like that they have finally put it on PC in a gorgeous graphical way I also loath the lack of support and proper implementation they have left us with... all those bugs still to be fixed etc will not be fixed (just last game I had my Tree disappear from the roster on set up and appeared in a random tile afterwards for example, Tackle is still not optional etc etc etc etc etc...http://www.cyanide-studio.com/forumBB/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=21415 ) as Cyanide has transferred or is transferring all the developer ressources to other games they are about to launch as we speak... shame. How long until they also stop support for the lobby and matchmaking server?

    In any event, as I said, I would not mind too much using extended inducements in a group phase of a league, as the law of averages will make me suffer one day and profit the next. But in a straight elimination phase (play offs etc) where you go all or nothing in a single match is a complete nonsense.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  14. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    We have had extended inducements in CCIII. I think we should not have them anymore altough I did like them at first, but they take away one aspect of the inducements that could be very usefull otherwise. They take away the mercenaries. Nobody in their right mind would take a mercenary if they can boost their own players instead:powdodge:

    I say nay:pow:
     
  15. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    Do people take mercenaries?

    I don't believe I have ever taken them.
    And I've only ever taken Star Players for a laugh in one off games.
    But never in a League game.
     
  16. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    In our club we have them often, if they can be tailored to the opponant of course:powdodge: But we also have a lot of special play cards induced and until cyanide gets that implemented I say we only play with regular inducements:powdodge:
     
  17. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Went to a game against a TV 1900:ish Norse team with my TV 1100:ish Wood Elf team. My team was for that match was 2 WD, 2 Throwers and 3 linos.

    4 journeymen got to be reinforced with 4 mercenary catchers and one mercenary treeman. It was really nice to be able to field 11 players throughout the game. :D

    But I can see how people who mainly play dwarves or orcs would never have to bother with mercenaries :p
     
  18. Vusfnuv

    Vusfnuv Member

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    I used mercenary blitzers once or twice. Nice when you can replace your injured positionals.
     
  19. Mico Selva

    Mico Selva Active Member

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    I am also not a fan of extended inducements in a competition that origined from a website dedicated to Blood Bowl in general (not specifically Cyanide BB). Nothing against them as an idea - if someone wants to use them in their custom leagues, that's just fine. They would just feel out of place in the Crunch Cup, I think.
     
  20. LordElrick

    LordElrick New Member

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    Did a google search looking for a comprehensive list of extended inducements and this was the first one to show up.
    Would anyone here be able to make a comprehensive list of these Extended inducements?
    I sure would appreciate it.
    Thanks in advance.