1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Format of CCVIII

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Narly Bird, Dec 16, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,993
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Country Flag:
    I thought I would stick my beak in and create this thread to discuss peoples preferences for the format of CCVIII.*

    Personally, I don’t like it that any team from CTA is allowed to participate in the CC and feel that this can make it somewhat unfair for coaches who don’t enter teams via that route (such as instead building up your team in CC league play - warts and all). My preference is to allow only existing teams from CCVII to be allowed to continue into CCVIII. Otherwise coaches should have to submit new tv 1,000 teams.

    What are other peoples thoughts?

    *Caveat – I’m not participating in CCVII and may not even be participating in the next CC (depends on when it is scheduled to start and my real life commitments).
     
  2. Mico Selva

    Mico Selva Active Member

    Messages:
    1,279
    Location:
    Outside Reality
    Country Flag:
    I don't mind CTA teams being allowed entry into CC - especially than many teams from previous CCs joined CTA (a lot of them without knowledge that there will be option to return to CC some day), but I would not like other developed teams entering the cup. Crunch or rookie is the way.

    But in the end I will accept anything Netsmurf decides. :p
     
  3. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Country Flag:
    Amen man. That is what I have been saying since the beginning. I have and will accept any format Netsmurf proposes because the felllow players here and the overall atmosphere are great, but CTA is in essence a farming ground and it exacerbates the usual TV difference problems of a small size league like this one.
     
  4. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Have to fully agree with this, I'm not keen on CTA teams coming into CC but will carry on with CC regardless (except next season probably)! Bit awkward for me though since I used to like CTA teams being able to join, and Let There Be Blight played a couple of matches in CTA before joining CC last season, but I'll happily remove them from CC if the rules do change.

    However, Mico makes a good point about teams leaving CC for CTA under the impression they could rejoin CC later on. If those teams are suddenly excluded then some coaches might not be too happy! If that happens though it could be solved by having one more season (CCVIII) where coaches can bring back their team, but after that it's continuing teams or new teams only.
     
  5. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Trondheim, Norway
    Cyanide Username:
    Barmution
    Country Flag:
    I agree that "abuse" of CTA preferably should be reigned in, but I don't have a really strong opinion on it. Would people possibly be interested in a compromise consisting of limits to CTA matches before and between CCs? Example: Max 5 matches/TV1200/100k gold in bank (whichever comes first) before joining and max the number of matches you "missed" by not getting to play-offs/finals in CTA between CCs.

    As every team joining CTA either fresh or from CC would start their match count there at 0, this info would be readily availabe for managers to avoid too heavy a workload when accepting applications.

    -B
     
  6. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    Brasilia -3 GMT
    Country Flag:
    The problem might be that Div 1 will basically stay pretty much the same teams ?

    I don't have much League experience so don't know if that is good or not. And CTA would have only the purpose of testing teams but no promise of CC ?
     
  7. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    12,210
    Steam Username:
    Dreamy
    Cyanide Username:
    Dreamy
    Country Flag:
    I personally fail to see the difference between playing seven games in a CC or seven games in the CTA. You get spp:s, money and injuries either way.

    I can see not opening up for teams from anywhere, since that might skew the selection towards teams that have rolled enough doubles / stat increases to make people want to keep playing them. :p

    But as long as we sort by TV upon cup entry, it doesn't matter a whit whether the team has experience. It will only make a difference if there is a structure in place with promotions and demotions.
     
  8. Flanks

    Flanks Member

    Messages:
    216
    Country Flag:
    As someone who recently used CTA to get my dwarfs up to about 1350TV before CC7 started.

    The point is that this is a cup, as opposed to a league. That is a crucial difference, in that people will want to enter a cup with a chance or desire to win, rather than feel they are 'wasting' a cup they can't win just to try and build for a later cup.

    What is the difference between someone languishing in div3/4 with no chance of winning for a couple of seasons compared to letting them have 4 or 5 matches in CTA and then entering with a bit better developed side?

    I can see the point of the objection to the current system, but I think the objection is only really relevant in a league format, which this is not.
     
  9. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    Brasilia -3 GMT
    Country Flag:
    Flanks... maybe put a top TV to enter CC ? That might avoid the more abusive teams. Certainly only those developed in the known environment of CTA.

    I think 1k teams means only certain races get represented. I like teams with that minimum of skills... 1300-1400+
     
  10. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Trondheim, Norway
    Cyanide Username:
    Barmution
    Country Flag:
    The main difference is this: Those putting in a TV1000 starting roster has to take whatever chance gives them in the cup, match for match. No extra match to insure you have a full set of positionals or enough extra cash in case disaster strikes. And you do not have the option for that extra match to try and skill a specific player, because every game counts and sometimes you just can't risk that hand-off to an AG2 player with a re-roll since you have to win/draw. If you do not accept that as a legitimate difference in type of game, there will be no reasonable discussion, only head-butting.

    Just to be clear, my Nurgle team had 3 off season matches in CTA between VI and VII, so I'm not a CC "purist" by any means, but I certainly understand the pride and point of view of those who've built their team through CC the hard/risky way. So can we just admit to there being differences in playing CC exclusively and having additional CTA games, just so we can have a discussion with relevant arguments, please?

    -B
     
  11. Valokiloren

    Valokiloren Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,212
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Steam Username:
    ʋǟʟ
    Cyanide Username:
    Valokiloren
    Country Flag:
    While I understand the issues with experienced teams in CC, there is little to no point in saying ex-Crunch Cup teams only - no CTA-trained ones. Ultimately it amounts to the same thing - someone running a team with a higher TV at the start of the Cup.

    Thing is, provided we don't have someone of a TV of 1500<, it doesn't really make a difference. The point is that while your team is better at certain TVs, it's harder to get many more skills on a team of Level 2s and 3s, which means that if you have few doubles or +stats, you aren't likely to pick up many in the Cup while compared to a team of a lower TV. While this is obvious, it means that we don't NEED to address a issue people have with teams trained in CTA.

    Regardless, my vote for CCVIII is just new teams. Yeah, experienced teams are fun and all, but why exclude CTA-trained ones if you are going to allow some experienced teams? You're best off just running all new teams.
     
  12. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    12,210
    Steam Username:
    Dreamy
    Cyanide Username:
    Dreamy
    Country Flag:
    Indeed. Either allow CC and CTA veterans, or go back to "only new teams, always"

    People will try to skill specific players in league games too, and will fail skilling those in challenge games.

    But to get some point to this discussion, I would need a question answered:

    "What is the abuse?"

    What, exactly, is the problem, and in which way would it be solved by allowing experienced teams from CC but not CTA?
     
  13. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Trondheim, Norway
    Cyanide Username:
    Barmution
    Country Flag:
    Problem, if any:
    Games in CTA are less risky, you can try doing stuff to farm SPP on favourite players and not get punished beyond a losing streak in CTA itself. You can farm money AND SPP knowing that you can just have a couple of more games to replace lost positionals. This is especially true for bashy teams, who have a far lower attrition rate. I also have played against coaches who say that they don't foul in the CTA because of it being more friendly in nature.

    The abuse would be starting out with a lot of spare cash in treasury and players with a lot of core skills, that might've been harder earned in CC. Each team has a prime TV where they operate more or less optimal, due to these skills having been gained and getting there is way more easy in CTA.

    That is the argument, and I don't think I can spell it out any clearer. Is it a problem? I don't know and don't really care, but no reasonable discussion can be had without acknowledging that this can be seen as unfair from some players point of view. That said, I don't think the strictest proposal would solve any other problem than removing said unfairness.
     
  14. Rusty

    Rusty Active Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Barmution has it there. It's a smaller point, but I'd also like to add that as it's possible to choose your opponents in CTA it's therefore possible to avoid nasty teams and play only Skaven, Elves etc, meaning fewer injuries and so more skills, higher treasury and so on. And to repeat Barmution, whether this is a problem or not is open to further discussion, but I don't see how anyone can claim there isn't a difference between the two.

    A couple of points to address from earlier:
    Coaches will still reroll new teams or drop out and if not a promotion/relegation system will actually be useful (unlike the end of last season :p), so there should still be decent mixing of teams from season to season.

    Also, CTA originally started out as being a for BBT coaches to have friendly games against each other with no promise of CC.

    The winners of CCVII were Quest for the New World, coached by Hoverdog, who started out life that very season in division 4 at TV1000. The fact that it's a cup means precisely that you can win from the lower divisions, so if anything it's easier to get into than a league format. Obviously having a higher TV makes it easier to win, but hopefully Barmution's post will have pointed out how the difference between CC and CTA can affect things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
  15. Valokiloren

    Valokiloren Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,212
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Steam Username:
    ʋǟʟ
    Cyanide Username:
    Valokiloren
    Country Flag:
    Oh no - don't get me wrong, I understand the difference. The thing is, unless you are really pussy-footing around, you aren't actually going to be spoilt for choice in terms of opponents on CTA. Or at least, I'm not.

    My Lizards for CCVII were trained on the blood and spoils of hard-fought games, and while I didn't foul in CTA... unless it's necessary for a play to succeed, or revenge-fuelled for losing a player I'm emotionally invested in, I don't foul in other environments either. Maybe one foul a game, tops?

    Thing is - you can't reasonably exclude CTA-teams compared to ex-CC teams. Yes, the environments are different - but that's what Team History is for. You can check the matches played by that team. It's not hard, and if you find that team only played easy to beat teams, such as Woodies taking on just Goblins, Halflings and Skaven, you can deny them for that reason. Ex-CC teams could have, however unlikely, an equally good chance of being brilliant, either due to admin wins in their favour or simply having a brilliant group, or a combination of both. I mean hell - I'm surprised Barm's team is as low in TV as it is, considering that it's core is well-built.

    Simply put, I want to see a clean sheet for every coach in CC8, as watching Bintz run his DElves again is a bit tedious, and similarly it denies everyone the chance to "abuse" the system. Hell, if it were doable, I'd like CC8 to be Tier 2/3 teams only.
     
  16. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    Brasilia -3 GMT
    Country Flag:
    Valok a clean sheet might be fine... but after that ? Clean sheet also means everyone at 1k... kind of boring... especially for gobbos and flings.

    I do understand Barmution's argument. Having extra cash can be unfair (though teams that can raise dead "linemen" naturally have more cash). But outside the cash... TV is what determines team parity in theory. No ?
     
  17. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Country Flag:

    I hope not. May Nuffle save us from TV parity, otherwise I ll just be better off playing MM at Cyanide Open Leagues.

    For me the issue as I repeated many times is the relatively unfair farming, the skills and money brought by an "easier" and "friendlier" environment at the CTA, specially advantaging bashy teams. Me being an elf is not surprising I argue against it but hey. It is undeniable some teams benefit much more than others in CTA.

    Heck, some of us do not even have enough time to play at the CTA and farm skills and money in addition to CC! Even if we wanted to!

    I do not see any conflict in not having CTA teams and at the same time allowing teams in the CC continue on subsequent seasons. This would not be the only league set up in that manner. The magic in CC is that any team, even TV1000 can win, i.e. Hoverdog, because we have both a group phase and a play off, that makes the CC quite special.

    And if only teams that play in the CC are allowed then we all know we are all in the same level playing field.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2011
  18. Flanks

    Flanks Member

    Messages:
    216
    Country Flag:
    I didn't disagree with any of these points.

    My point was simply this.

    How is it different to a manager putting in a 1000TV team and playing purely to level players in the first campaign or two?

    It isn't.

    The only difference is that for the manager in question, it allows them to maybe use the KO phase of the cup to prepare their new team for the next cup.
     
  19. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    12,210
    Steam Username:
    Dreamy
    Cyanide Username:
    Dreamy
    Country Flag:
    Niffe Naffe Nuffle are basically a CC team. Nothing has stopped them from becoming incredibly efficient killers. Your elves would still be running into them from below if they were still playing.

    Sure, CTA might (in theory) allow advancement with fever games (and definitely with fewer games in CC-seasons) but I think the argument "it would create teams that could never be built in CC" is a fallacy.

    People build amazing teams in league play as well, and can "play easy" once they see that they are out of the running for the season anyway. (And teams seem to be getting plenty of admined victories as well)

    The only difference is that instead of having to wait a whole season to get a team ready for next season, I can take advantage of the opportunity to get in some CTA matches when I have spare time, to be able to try a new team next season.

    And I for one like that chance - it is basically impossible to get above TV 1600 in CTA anyway, and CC then gives me a chance to see what happens to that team in the TV 1600-1800 bracket, that would otherwise be unreachable, or take lots and lots of weeks to reach by cup play.

    Mayhaps everyone else has played zillions of games and already know how teams react and play at such (for me) lofty levels, but I am comparatively new to blood bowl and appreciate the opportunity to not have to wait until the turn of the (next) century.
    (And from my understanding, trying out the TV 1600+ in MM would mostly teach me what happens when playing orc after chaos after orc after chaos with a smattering of nurgle and dwarf thrown in for good measure.)
     
  20. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,993
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Country Flag:
    CCI to CCIV were all tv 1,000 teams only. It was from CCV that we allowed teams to continue on or the rule that allows CTA teams to also enter.

    To be honest, it doesn't make a huge difference to me, but i still prefer to allow only continuing teams or rookies, which is how most real life leagues work and how OCC worked until recently (when they introduced SSC).

    My main reason is that CTA is easier going and easier to just reset your team if something bad happens, before joining CC. For example, you start your Elf team in the CC and your blitzer gets -1MA. You probably keep him on the team anyway and just keep playing. If it were a CTA team, you just restart the team. Hey presto you have a non-gimped Blitzer and your tv's are exactly the same.

    Its also true with skills and things. You can be more selective in CTA. For example, you run 3 Orc teams and then take the one that has rolled the most doubles to CC.

    Either way though its not going to stop me from playing in the CC. Its just my preference not to allow CTA teams in. :)

    Also its good to see some lively debate on the topic, both for and against. I would encourage all coaches to voice their opinion (if they have one), so that we can go with whatever is the majority and also have a decent discussion about it.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.