1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Elf Fouling with pro elves

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Blasscend, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. Blasscend

    Blasscend Member

    Messages:
    681
    Cyanide Username:
    Blassc_end
    Country Flag:
    The fouling stats thread just reminded me of something I wanted to ask, which would be:

    Is building a fouling expert lino on pro elves a good idea? I already have had quite a few and because of that, my conclusion was: heck yes. Why? Well, let's take a look on other fouling linos. Most are either 40 or 50k. Pro elf linos are 60. That being said, what you'll want for a fouling lino is both dp and sg. Which is a double for any lino other than elven ones. That means, a 50k fouler with sg will end up costing the same. A 40k one will be just 10k cheaper.
    The thing is though, using a perfectly fine lino for that isn't the best idea. I used to do that but realised a -agi one or a niggled one is waaay better for it. Although a normal one still has it's uses. Agi 4 means you'll have an easy time setting the foul up a d assisting it.

    Now here's the catch though: Why would you want one, as elves aren't about pitch removal?
    Perfectly fine pov, but just think about killer builds like pomb tackle. You want to get rid of those and a foul will do just that.

    Turns out this is less a question than a monologue..opinions or things I forgot to think of are welcome and appreciated :)
     
  2. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Country Flag:
    Short answer: Yes.

    Long answer:

    Although Pro elves are cheap enough to plan for a dedicated fouler to great effect the main issue is with numbers. In order to foul well you need a bench and it will be indeed a rare day when a Pro Elf team has one.

    Not being "made" for pitch removal does not mean that pitch removal is not a way for elves to win games. As we all know pitch removal of your opponent is always a good thing for winning games! Elves or no elves. Elves cant have easy access to MB but can have access to DP instead, which works in a similar way in terms of damage.

    Plus Elves benefit in a compounded way the lower the pieces left in the pitch. The less tackle zones to move around the better the opportunities available for an agile race. That is assuming you lose at most like for like numbers obviously. Everything else being equal the less pieces in the field (assuming a fair spread of losses in both teams) the better it gets for elves. Similar piece value trade offs (as a general rule, but with plenty exceptions obviously) in principle favor agile races.

    So get that fouler going if you can!
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  3. AllyRdr

    AllyRdr Member

    Messages:
    437
    Country Flag:
    To expand on what's gone before, yes, having a dedicated fouler on an elf team would work wonders, but as Viajero has said, you need to have a bench. To give an example, my current team over at OCC, in their second season, have finally managed to get back to ten actual players on the roster. The previous incarnation of them took something like 5 seasons before they had an adequate number of subs to think about developing a fouler.
    The other problem with this, is that elves rely heavily on their positionals. Your linos will leave the pitch, and when they're ko'd (hopefully, rather than other injuries) they're not earning spps, so skilling them becomes difficult. It becomes worse as your team progresses, as against other skilled teams, the linos become a meat shield to block off zones of the pitch for your "good" players to play in.
     
  4. Altashheth

    Altashheth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,395
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Country Flag:
    An elf fouler is probably the only place I'd consider Sneaky Git, just because you don't have the numbers for gang fouls and you don't have the replacement bench, so you want to be taking them out when you get sent off.... Saying that 60k for the elf, 20k each for sneaky git and dirty player....that's a 100k TV fouler.... Use him as a threat and expect him to get targeted
     
  5. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,033
    Country Flag:
    My high elf team in the OCC just got a DP lino. In his first game he fouled twice. His second foul smashed the hip of a legendary orc blitzer with frenzy, tackle, MB, piling on, jump up and some other fucking skill.

    So yes, definitely worth it so far.
     
  6. Blasscend

    Blasscend Member

    Messages:
    681
    Cyanide Username:
    Blassc_end
    Country Flag:
    True; the whole numbers thing is a big issue. And yes, the linos on pro elves more or less will be used as meat shields to protect your positionals. Still..I don't find it hard to get at least 1 or 2 assists for a quick foul. Developing one is probably the hardest part. But once you have him..well, you're gonna have to use him. To be honest, I'd say he's a good way to try and make the team survige games. Getting rid of that killer might save some of them. It's more or less a "good to have, but not a must"-thing.

    Alt, I've seen a LOT of players hoping to roll doubles for their foulers. It's not that rare really. And even if you only have DP on them, it still makes him only 10k more expensive than a 50k fouler. He's not THAT much more expensive than your usual fouler.
     
  7. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,561
    Location:
    Trondheim, Norway
    Cyanide Username:
    Barmution
    Country Flag:
    I don't like Sneaky Git on my fouler, I'd rather have a "real" skill to make him useful when not fouling. I don't usually foul unless I can get enough assists that a 6 on the armor roll is enough to break it, making SG pretty useless to me. That said, I don't usually mark prone players either, so it's probably a play style issue.
     
  8. Altashheth

    Altashheth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,395
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Country Flag:
    Barm has hit the problem I have on the head... Sneaky git is counter productive.... I'd say get a dp fouler at 70k purely to threaten Piling on players and for the occasional gang foul... It's not that the elf fouler is more expensive than any other fouler it's the combining up of TV..... You know how I feel about TV :)

    Elves are expensive, they maybe only 10k more than a human but by the time you've picked 11 players those 10ks add up....

    Saying all that I like to have at least one player that can make my opponent think twice about piling on.....
     
  9. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,033
    Country Flag:
    Kick is a good second skill on a fouler. On the basis that you will mainly foul on defence anyway...
     
  10. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

    Messages:
    2,995
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Country Flag:
    Well done you!

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,438
    Location:
    Near Chicago, Illinois - in the United States of A
    Country Flag:
    i agree with barm. I don't like SG on my fouler (unless i have 2 on the team, such as norse, ChD, etc. and then its a double). A pro elf fouler with DP at 80k isn't bad....its 10k more than a normal 50k lino with DP, and has an easier time getting around. My superstar (in actions, not skills) fouler on RnR, Lenny Kravitz eventually rolled +AG, and i ended up taking it there, it felt worthwhile to make him an all-around threat, but his TV did launch up to 110.

    If i were to choose a second skill for a fouler, its almost always going to be block, followed by dodge or fend, followed by the sack at 4 skills. A block fouler can make those "safe" hits when you need him to...sure he's not fouling, but those times when the fouler is stuck in contact with a favorable block (because people think all they need to do to shut off a fouler is mark him...) means you can take the extra hit, ,which isn't as reliable as fouling, but doesn't get you sent off either.

    @ everblue: I took Kick on a dirty player once and i hated it. Maybe its different with elves, who have a much more regimented offense and defense group, but i generally field my fouler on T1 and he stays on the field until injured or ejected. That player is almost always wasting one skill or the other, unless you only field him on defence (and if he doesn't get ejected during your defensive drive). I'm also a bigger supporter of fouling on offense than on defense. Offense can give you 3-4 free assists at the LOS, it can give free assists in the form of sticking cage corners next to foul targets before fouling, and it helps keep your numbers up, since you don't have to suffer 3 LOS hits before you get a turn (which can also spiral downwards until you don't have ANYONE to foul with anymore!)
     
  12. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

    Messages:
    1,033
    Country Flag:
    I generally don't foul on offence with elves, because I have always thought that I have more important things to worry about (if I screw up my offence I usually lose) but I am pretty new at this fouling business so maybe I should try it out more.
     
  13. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,722
    Location:
    Buenos Aires (gmt -3)
    Cyanide Username:
    danton
    Country Flag:
    My OCC darkies had a dirty player for a while and I found it useful, although it meant having a bench was important and consequently my team's tv was normally very high. I definitely think all elf teams can benefit from having a fouler, but given the expense of the players it means having to foul only high priority targets if possible.

    SG is not a great skill, but it has saved my DP from getting ejected on his first foul of the game both on my CC human team and my OCC team, so it's not completely useless! :p
     
  14. Doomy

    Doomy Member

    Messages:
    401
    Country Flag:
    As recently discussed in another thread, Wrestle is a better companion skill for Dirty Player than Block IMO. Makes your opponent think twice about blocking your fouler if he can get dragged down by wrestle and booted in the head next turn.
     
  15. Blasscend

    Blasscend Member

    Messages:
    681
    Cyanide Username:
    Blassc_end
    Country Flag:
    Thanks for all the input, I´ll go around considering it next time I´m in the situation to skill a pro elf lino up for dp :D

    Which will take a while...
     
  16. bathoz

    bathoz Member

    Messages:
    176
    Country Flag:
    (Targetted) removal is an important part of the game.

    That's what DP gives you. You're not trading your 80k (100k) lineman for his 100k whatever, you're going for the guy who matters most.

    With that in mind, at least once the game has developed more (and you're leading), I frequently start fouling with my higher value players, just to get them off the field. So... YMMV.
     
  17. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,438
    Location:
    Near Chicago, Illinois - in the United States of A
    Country Flag:
    i didn't see this other thread, but i'd definietly weigh in on the side of block... -3MV after going down isn't conducive to getting to foul targets. If your fouler has 2 skills, then already you're looking at high TV targets to take down, and your 90TV+ player needs to be able to GET to those targets for the fouls...

    I don't know too many players who make an effort to mark a DP and don't care who they mark him with. Or who will blitz a DP with their high-profile player (as DPs tend to be buried behind other players so they keep their TZs clear for moving to a foul)
     
  18. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    Brasilia -3 GMT
    Country Flag:
    ASSASSIN in the Ass Family was quite effective..

    Numbers Game:
    If you foul and take out a Frenzy/PO or Killer player... you are in fact HELPING yourself in the numbers game since you avoid having players taken out. Even if the fouler is kicked out... you help your numbers more overall.

    Keep Enemy on his toes:
    His favorite gimmick that sleazy PO/MB player is at constant risk from a fouler. Even a no assist foul is dangerous with a dedicated SG/DP. So once again your team suffers less.

    Keep Enemy bunched up:
    Bash teams usually spread out to "curtain" elves passage. That makes for good fouling targets. So either his "wings" are disposable linemen who do a worse job... or he ends up clumping more in order to protect his star players. This makes openings to backfield easier and also screening easier.

    Notice that these two don't require that you foul liberally... just enough to remind them that death wears a pointy boot.

    Finally... most teams like to target the DP player... if they are blitzing him... they are not blitzing your munchkin star player.