Funhouse Cast -- Crunch Cup III team blog

[Strobinator]

I was just talking to Sceadeau yesterday about what the hold up was. I assumed he hadn't heard from McFood yet.

Sceadeau - take a break from kicking puppies, I want to watch the match.

 

[Sceadeau]

We have pmd. His schedule has been bad recently, and since we are holding no one up, just waiting on a good time for him...our schedules are such that only weekends work.

 

[Etheric]

Scadeau has certainly made some waves on here, not least simply because he showed up out of seemingly nowhere and started crushing everything in his path, but also because he gave a (highly distinctive!) voice to the usually less-outspoken* among us who really hate to roll those dice and try to limit the amount of dice-rolling in this ultimately chance-based game.

I do think it is rather more complicated than that. You have to know the odds, what the risk will get you and balancing the risk/reward. I would say Khemri for sure are not someone to try to play heroball with. With woodelves it is something else though.

I was curious how sacra played woodies given his stated preference for low risk gameplay and my belief (which I have also seen in quite a few guides as well) that that is not the way to play wood elves, so I watched quite a few of his Pants BBL games. It was quite interesting, and as far as I am concerned proves my point. That was hardly a study in conservative gameplay. A highlight was the leap into a cage for a 2d against block on a ball carrier WITH BLOCK, which fails 25/27 times (I think it was an agi 4 wd, not sure). It came up though as I recall, for some real heroball action.

He was also doing some serious marking up with the woodies, and getting quite often 20+ injury rolls in a match. This is less devistating than I expected with 2 bloodweiser babes on hand, but I would strongly suspect he was leading or close on deaths and retirements though.

Even with Khemri he was not minimising dice rolls, only agility rolls, he was making as many 2d blocks as possible. A 2d block especially with block is a classic can go wrong, but the odds are strongly in your favour dice roll, so it is overly simplistic to say you should minimise dice rolls. The key is to make the odds as much in your favour as possible, and minimise the damage if the dice go wrong.

There are some situations where it does come down to a judgement call. In my game iwth netsmurf on sunday he could have (I think) got a nice 2d block with his ghouls but chose instead to dodge his wight out of a TZ to leave a ghoul free. With a sucessfull block and a fortunate scatter he then had a player free to pick up the ball and score. I try something similar later in the game and fail the dodge (even with a RR) and put myself in a bad position.

Some situations. Your player needs to GFI twice to score and it is turn 15.

1/ The player is on his own, noone can hit him next turn then the gfi is obviously the wrong idea.
2/ The player does not have block and has no support from your team and next turn will be hit by the str 4 block tackle guy in a 2D block, and you have a RR in the bank. Then I expect most people would gfi to score, stalling is risky.
3/ as above without the RR. Then life becomes more intersting. If your oppenent has another player ready to scoop up the ball then you should probably gfi as well, but it is now risky without a RR.
4/ You have blodge and ag 4 and he can only make a 1D block on you next go (without tackle). Then you take the block and try to dodge away next turn. If he has a RR though and you don't the odds are balanced. I would guess the best thing is to not take the risk though, and hope your opponent makes a mistake.

It HAS to come down to a balance between, the situation if you don't roll the dice, the situation if you do and it works vs the situation you do and it fails (and the odds of sucess)

So "don't roll dice" is a really simplistic way of looking at things, it depends on your team, your opponents team, and your relative skill levels (if your opponent is going to make a mistake that gives you an opening anyway, then for sure you should be more cautious). In some situations the best thing you can do is roll the dice and hope it comes off. The skill of course is knowing when those are .

 

[Barninho]

I did an end of season awards article for the OCC gazette last season and as part of that I trawled through the divisions looking at stats and so on.

The tier 1 champion was a player who goes by the name of Flix and he has a reputation as an awesome player and he took Wood elves. One thing that leapt out for me was the fact that in a 9 game season he only made 7 passes. That's all season.

I was staggered by that but basically this guy passes when he absolutely has to with one of the teams who are pretty much made for passing and he has beaten a lot of the best players around. So I guess it works both ways even with Woodies.

I will say this for Sceadeau, he has improved my game. I'm still a sucker for a high-variance play when it will put me in a great position, and I don't have the discipline to take it to the extremes Sceadeau does maybe, but I'm discovering a new patience since I played him in a friendly game a couple of months ago and got absolutely smothered by a Skaven team.

I recently beat an Orc team 1-0 with a 400 TV advantage over me in OCC and checking the stats the guy made twice as many dice rolls as I did. Have the time I left my players standing cause I was happy with where they are. Was really proud of myself for that, because as anyone who has played me will know, I normally do a lot of stupid shit.

 

[Etheric]

The tier 1 champion was a player who goes by the name of Flix and he has a reputation as an awesome player and he took Wood elves. One thing that leapt out for me was the fact that in a 9 game season he only made 7 passes. That's all season.

I was staggered by that but basically this guy passes when he absolutely has to with one of the teams who are pretty much made for passing and he has beaten a lot of the best players around. So I guess it works both ways even with Woodies.

Cool some more replays to watch. I do struggle with wood elves, so it is nice to watch an expert play them.

What is the current orca cola season? Was just looking at S8 in BBmanager, the first game I looked at (vs lizards) he made 4 which looking at the other two was something of an aberation as he made 1 in the other two in S8 on there. I guess you are talking about S7?

For sure passing is actually quite risky unless it is from someone with pass to someone with catch. Looking at this team he does not actually have a thrower, which is interesting for sure. Will ahve to start wtih the most recent game where he got an absolute nuffling on armour rolls (31 injury rolls)

For sure there is a tendancy to roll too many dice, you look at what you can get if you make it, and don't look hard enough at what you can lose if you fail, I just think it has been presented too much the other way. But sure any beginner will roll too many dice, and I am certainally guilty of not thinking about failure on occasions.

 

[John McGuirk]

So "don't roll dice" is a really simplistic way of looking at things, it depends on your team, your opponents team, and your relative skill levels

Very true; I should have spend more time thinking out my post. 'Rolling dice' in my mind is short-hand for agility rolls, as I mentally I've filed blocking as a completely different part of the game and the block dice again as a part of that difference.

This is because the skills that prevent turnovers (Block, Wrestle, Dauntless) don't work as re-rolls, unlike Dodge, Pass etc - instead they modify dice results in your favour or increase the number of dice you roll. What is key in my mind is that you can get a re-roll on a - already a 1 in 36 against - another coming up being almost negligibly improbable. Even a 1 in 9 (blocking without Block) going badly twice is very unlikely to happen. Basically, if you have a re-roll to hand - and this is not to say misfortune can't or won't strike - I don't think you are playing in a risky way by choosing to execute 2D blocks.

So what I meant was by 'don't roll dice' is that Scadaeu has been arguing in favour of play that prioritises risk management. The riskiest aspect of BB being to my mind agility checks, I wrote as if dice rolling = agility checks, which was lazy and inaccurate of me. Apologies

 

[Barninho]

No I'm talking season 7. Flix is meant to be a truly awesome Woodie coach. Haven't been paying much attention recently.

 

[Etheric]

No I'm talking season 7. Flix is meant to be a truly awesome Woodie coach. Haven't been paying much attention recently.

Yeah watched some of the replays, nice play. I agree he does not make unecessary dice rolls. Interestingly he does not use a thrower at all, just WD, catchers and linemen, he then plays more like skaven with a running game and handoffs to receivers in scoring range.

He does "roll the dice" occasionally, but not much. A 2d against block hoping for a push (70%) to make a gap to blitz the ball carrier. A leap to the square the ball was on, to pick it up in 1 or more TZ, then a dodge to freedom and a pass across the field to a catcher in the clear (it was inaccurate as I recall, but anything but a fumble would have been fine). Which was my point. Sometimes when the gain is big and the odds are ok rolling the dice is the way to go. As I said though rolling hte dice too much and getting burned is a lot more common an error than the other way around.

 

[Panda with issues]

Was really proud of myself for that, because as anyone who has played me will know, I normally do a lot of stupid shit.

Heh, yeah...




Nah, just kidding mate. THat was a tough game. Rematch maybe?

 

[Narly Bird]

So i've got my CCIV match vs Coachmans Nurgle team this weekend. I'm playing as Pro Elf. Is it worth dodging my elves away from his markers (likely Nurgle Warriors) so that i can do 2-dice blocks on Rotters? Given i only have AV7, what other real options do i have?

Im posting this here as i figure he wont read this thread.

Also, im a big fan on passing the ball to earn SPP. As long as its safely in the backfield and you have AG4 or built in pass/catch, i say go for it!

 

[Netsmurf]

Never give away free blocks with AV7 unless you realy need to, so after all other important stuff I would dodge away to hit on the rotters. They do have decay so there is a good change to rack up some kills. And you will be removing AG3 players. I always pass at least once with as many linemen as possible for a skill with the MVP.

 

[Viajero]

So i've got my CCIV match vs Coachmans Nurgle team this weekend. I'm playing as Pro Elf. Is it worth dodging my elves away from his markers (likely Nurgle Warriors) so that i can do 2-dice blocks on Rotters? Given i only have AV7, what other real options do i have?

Im posting this here as i figure he wont read this thread.

Also, im a big fan on passing the ball to earn SPP. As long as its safely in the backfield and you have AG4 or built in pass/catch, i say go for it!

Nurgle is always a tough match up for elves, but more so for the relatively slower and AV7 Pro´s as they rely much more on the passing game which the distrubing presence affects big time. I would also pray for no rain for good measure. Disturbing presence + rain = no passing game at all.

Here below how I typically go about playing pro´s against Nurgle:

NW are ST4 and you ll likely need 3 pieces for a decent block... not to mention that Foul Appearence that make 1 chance in 6 to waste that effort. So I´d say no, not worth it to block those guys really unless critical to free up the path for a TD or similar. One of the weakness of Nurgle is the lack of decent AG3 players... among which you have Rotters. So in general I d aim for blocking or blitzing rotters and pestigors alike in the first place.

Yes, you need to dodge your pieces out of marking, but in defense the priority is to build the stalling line (see below), so dodges required to (re)form the line are the key ones, use the RR on those moves only. Any other dodge not strictly necessary for the stalling defense line should be done last and no RR wasted in them, unless you can afford it or it is for an otherwise key blitz or action.

You will probably need a running game against Nurgle so be prepared to carry the ball with a fast piece, i.e. blitzer or catcher.

In attack you really need to watch for those disturbing pressence auras (3 tiles away from the NW or beast) in order to plan passes/catches. stretch your team accross the board and create holes and gaps that can be exploited by your catchers/blitzers and their superior speed. Once you do, run with the ball and use LM to screen.

Try not to have pieces only 1 tiles away or otherwise too close together, or the beast will move in and tie them all up. Move 1 or 2sacrifical LM one tile away or so, but not marking, from the beast (and keep them 2 tiles appart so the beast can only mark one) so to screen it from the rest of your contingent as appropriate.

In defense, usual 2 tiles appart columns and 2 lines deep stalling line, with blitzers busting cage corners and stickying to the carrier whenever possible etc. If you manage to pull a decent stalling line, watch for the turn marker... when you approach the 5th or 6th turn study closely where your opponent´s carrier is and how much he needs to progress by turn 7 so to be able to score on the 8th or do a hand off to someone closer to TD. Reposition your stalling line as appropriate. If it is a new team chances are most of your RR will be consumed by dodging away, so keep them for that to ensure the line is solid.

A good Nurgle player will move in the beast in contact with your line so at least one of your players will be tied up next turn. Be mindfull of that and try to have always one or two more players than strictly necessary available to form the line just in case. Use them to form the line next turn and then dodge away from the beast as the last move once you happy with the reformed line.

Also try to bust a cage corner and mark the carrier every turn so he is probably forced to blitz you there instead of your stalling line. But, reforming the stalling line is your priority, so reposition first and then do the blitz, not the other way around. The RR is better used in reforming the line, not in blitzing (unless you are blitzing the carrier himself obviously!).

This cage corner busting is more critical against nurgle so to avoid the beast from moving in your stalling line after it has been blitzed... in these cases the beast may be eventually in contact with up to 2 players, maybe 3, and really mess up your defense. In those cases where you really think the beast may pull this off preventing you from reforming the line next turn sometimes is better to mark it so to avoid that risk... Also, do not waste RR on tentacle rolls unless you can afford it and/or it is the last action of the turn.

Final piece of advice: Nurgle is all about the beast, as you can see for example it can really mess up a stalling defense line if it is allowed to do so in attack. But also in defense! Never leave your ball carrier 7 or less tiles away from the beast without proper screening. Nurgle will try by all means possible to seek direct line of sight between the beast and your carrier. If he can clear a path to move in the beast so to mark or even blitz your carrier he will do it. And you do not want to have teh beast marking your carrier, ever. You may not get away, and you may also fail the hand off or pass due to DP. So it is a No-No. Be either 8 tiles away from it or screened appropriately!

Aim for the 1-0: prevent him from scoring in his drive (or score in defense if possible), then plan to score on your own leaving him with 1 or 2 turns at most. If you have the choice, kick first so you can defend with the full team.

 

[Barninho]

Basically do exactly what Viajero did in the OCC game against me.

I can vouch for the fact that particular approach works... Playing Viajero was an educational process, put it like that...

One thing I will say about that technique is he chose to kick, and that made things much harder for me. I reckon that'll be true of Nurgle too if you get the option.

 

[Narly Bird]

The problem i have when playing as Pro Elf is that they always get mashed into pulp. AV7 and no defensive skills means you are often carrying serious injuries/deaths after the first match.

 

[Viajero]

The problem i have when playing as Pro Elf is that they always get mashed into pulp. AV7 and no defensive skills means you are often carrying serious injuries/deaths after the first match.

Not really if you make a point to try and dodge out every turn. The difficult bit is optimizing the sequence. In defense you probably need to move first all unmarked players that will be part of the line and then you should dodge out first with those players that would be also part of the defensive line. Here you can try to dodge out players by the Nurgle Beast but I would think twice before wasting a RR on the tentacle roll. Other moves and blitzes (unless blitzing the carrier that is) should be last.

If you try and dodge every turn (including some failed 1´s) then the usual number of knocked downs due to block actions from your opponent is around 30 or so in a typical match. Chances of breaking AV7 (no MB) is 0.416, chances of getting and injury is 0.166. So, in average you should have per game around 30 x 0.416 x 0.166 = 2 injuries. Of which 50% is badly hurt and the other 50% has 2/3 chances of not being a permanent one and/or maybe healed by the Apo. Again, that asumes you try and dodge out every turn and includes some failed attempts there. But if you stick to your opponent and dont dodge out of tackle zones then that "30" knocked down assumption is not valid anymore... All in all I d say an elf player is doing alright if he/she manages to suffer around 30 knocked downs per game. If you manage to get less it means either you doing a great job avoiding hits or your opponent did not take advantage of his.

So, 2 injuries on average, but either 1 or 3 may be reasonable. No injury or 4+ injuries is definitely significant good or bad luck respectively. Now pro elves are cheap(er) and a typical rtoster shoudl be able to afford 12 or even 13 players. I personally aim for 13, but also because I plan to have 1 LM with Dirty Player.

The same calculation but done asuming ALL knocked downs are done with a MB player (which is very rarely the case) yields in average just one more injured player per match!!. I.e. 3 on average, whereby having either 2 or 4 may be reasonable luck-wise. As you can see MB is not the killing machine many want us to believe. Is a good skill no doubt but far from the "1 knocked down = 1 kill" that many bashy players believe it is. The way to really break elves is by forcing more than those average 30 knocked downs via good posiitoning (forcing -1 or-2 dodges) and or/big time fouling. Skills like tackle or dirty player are as important if not more than MB.

I presume your team has at least 3 RR?

PS: BBManager is great to analyze these things. Let us know when you upload the game to BBManager and we ll take a look and comment!

 

[Viajero]

Narly!

I heard a 3-1 was had and an elf party ensued! tell us about it!

 

[Nikolai II]

Reading this thread I find the end of it suddenly discusses Nurgle and Pro Elves, but the first half is still a solid read on how to play as Khemri (and/or how to not play against Khemri )

 

[Gallows Bait]

Ugh, my first shambolic outing into Crunch Cup on page one. Send this back to the darkness you heartless threadromancer.

 

[Fallowheart]

oh now that's it's dredged out of the depths, i'll have to peruse this leviathan...

 

[crimsonsun]

I must say this thread could in many ways be a carbon copy of my thoughts regarding both Khermi and Nurgle as I have written up on Talkfantasyfootball. I am glad that someone else is on the same line of thinking as myself.

Crimsonsun