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Skaven Good Skaven players

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by TravelScrabble, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday was a very good day in the quest for Skaven perfection, thanks Ugnash! Clearly at some point I'll have to do a little summary of the different players and their styles. I keep meaning to find time to add some other resources to the OP too.
     
  2. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    That style of 344 lineup (when I kick the ball that is) has been my bread and butter... snacks... dinner... candy... cookies... cake... and generally everything I eat... type of setup for me since I first came up with it during my first year of BB gaming (1996... note: not saying I invented it, i am sure/I know it existed long long befor in the early existence of BB, just that I figured that setup out by my self). It's a kind of setup I would use for pretty much any race I play, as long as I am able to field 11 players.

    It's a setup I would use, and have used, with Skaven teams. Now I am not all that well-versed with Skaven teams... or any team outside of Humans really, and some Dark Elves and Norse as well (these are the 3 teams I have spent the most time with)... but that does not really matter to me... because I still tend to play everything I play sort of the same. Which basicly is building my teams to be able to fight against any type of opponent, no matter what their style of gameplay is.

    This is clearly my Human tactics talking here. My wish to be able to fight any type of tactics set up against me, my wish for close to all possitions on my team to be able to handle any kind of opponent in a fight, to be a kind of narrowed down type of a jack-of-all-trade when it comes to fighting, and my wish for the opponent to feel that even if he did get rid of something very dangerous to one/some/all of his players, like for example a Blitzer with Tackle+MB+Guard+Dauntless (my normal Blitzer progression)... there are still 3 more of them exacly (or almost exacly) like him.

    Anyway...

    That is actually one of the many reasons I like this setup so much, because I know exacly where the opponent will go if they try to break through during their first round after kick-off.

    The Bashy teams are usually slower, so they won't reach far in, and it's risky to if they did not manage to get rid of all of the people on the line. And then I have a lot of fast (usually) players on each side of them that can move up infront, and to the side or even behind, them to screen. Or if the slower team decides to cage up close to one of the sides instead, then the screen infront of them is already there, and my players from the other side of the pitch are still quick enough to move over to either screen them on their side, or take care of what ever else he might have left hanging around the other side and/or middle.

    Now the Quick teams is a little bit more difficult to stop from getting into your backfield with this setup, as you said. It clearly depends on how it went on the centerline, if he managed to knock all of them down/out, or if he only managed to push them around, etc. But no matter what, it does still leave you with a lot of your players close enough to move in on them, and/or to where the ballcarrier is on his side.

    I just think this setup style leaves you with a huge amount of options no matter what the opponent does. Also, it does leave some of my players close enough to move forward and be able to score a TD on my second turn after kick-off. I always try and make sure I have atleast 1 player close enogh to score a TD if I manage to break the ball free for me to snatch up. And if I can't do that then I try and make sure I have someone who is in such a possition that if I do get the ball to them, they would be close to untouchable once I have moved them.

    And as you said, Frenzy can screw up this set up. I sometimes try and get Stand Firm for the players in the front at the sidelines (so the Stormvermins in this case). But unfortunatly it's a skill which I would normally not consider getting on such a player until possibly their 5-6th skill, so normally it's somewhat of a moot point. I do usualy move those players in one step, but like you said it leaves the guy behind open for a blitz... no matter if you moved them in together with the front guy or not. This is one of those things which you unfortunatly can not do much about, unless you want to get Stand Firm for that front player quickly.

    Exacly. The less people helping with the cage, the easier it is to break the cage open. Or, the more people helping with the cage, the more of your people are free to move as you want them to, which you can do all sorts of damage with. To me using this setup, for when you kick the ball, is all sorts of win-win scenarios. And the only real chink in the armour is that part of quicker team being able to either trickle or flood people in behind you... depending somewhat on how things went at the centerline. But what are you going to do... there is no one perfect set up really. To me this is as close to perfection as you can come with a setup in BB though... atleast for the types of teams I prefer to play (somewhat quick teams, I really don't like playing slow teams... anything slower then Norse is close to, or compleatly, unbearable for me).

    Hmm... this post did not really end up being all about Skaven I noticed... but about that one particular set up... but I guess that still does to some extent aply to Skaven anyway... so I hope I did not go to far off topic. XD

    Edit: Also... sorry about how huge this post is... XD
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  3. claaaams

    claaaams Member

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    No problem, enjoyed the feedback Mephiston :)

    On the Thrower: I actually play two of the buggers, spending my very first 70k of winnings on the second one.

    The trick is not to play them like elf throwers. Don't hang out in the backfield out of range and look for the open rat - the AG3 will disappoint you. You'll be forced by circumstance to do this on occasion, but ordinarily, I'm looking for a safe place near midfield to put him on the first turn of a drive, only retreating to the backfield if he's dangerously exposed by a crazy kick, blitz, perfect defense, etc.

    Two of them means two Sure Hands guys in back for ball pickup duties on offense (my current Skaven team has one with Block and one with Accurate, I put the Accurate guy deeper and the Block guy shallower, for obvious reasons). Then whoever isn't carrying the ball is just an extra screener, and yes, it means all 4 gutter runners can be doing more important things.

    If the opponent overreacts to the gutters, then you just build a crappy skaven cage and walk the ball up the field. If they go for the thrower, then it can't be too difficult, assuming you're close to midfield, to get him a simple short pass or (better yet, as you're only AG3) a handoff to a gutter runner.

    But the main reason I play them, I think, is for their defense. Here's the key: skaven throwers are just skaven linerats with 2 occasionally useful skills for only 20k more! You're going to have to field some linerats, so why not upgrade 2 of them for a mere 40k? on defense, especially if they're unskilled, you can feel free to treat them like crap, put them on the LOS if you're short numbers, and so on, and if they happen to skill up to something special, then start valuing them. Otherwise, on defense, you'd be amazed at how often you've started some kind of scrum, and suddenly you're like "hey, that little fella has Sure Hands and Pass! Touchdown!"

    Hope that makes sense. I'm a little high on Warpstone right now after a really thrilling 3-2 win with my league Skaven team yesterday, so yeah, I'm rambling too. But Skaven throwers! Way underrated piece, in my opinion.
     
  4. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I like having two throwers too and ideally I build one for defense and one for offense. So the offensive one would be getting Accurate or Block first and the defensive one takes Block and Kick in either order. I like having a thrower with Kick, because then your remaining line rats are free to be fodder!
     
  5. claaaams

    claaaams Member

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    Interesting point, Danton. I am occasionally frustrated by having to find a spot for my linerat kicker in my defensive setup, so I might try that.

    Question for you: say hypothetically you have to set up on offense for the first drive of the game. Would the Block Kick thrower make it on the field for that setup? Or does he really only play defense if you can help it?
     
  6. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    It would depend really on how much of a bench you have and who the opponent is. A second pair of Sure Hands in your backfield is useful to have when receiving the kick all the same.

    I think if I kicked first then I would definitely field him on offense assuming he survived the first defensive drive. If I had to receive first it would depend as above.
     
  7. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    I concur with using Throwers for the teams that have them. I usually only have one on the field (sometimes I don't even buy a second one), but that's because I tend to play in a certain way.

    Anyway... unless I roll a double or something my natural first two skills for my Throwers, if it already has Pass and Sure Hands, is always Accurate then Kick-Off Return. And I do the same for Skaven Throwers, the few times I have played them.

    Now... my game style when it comes to the ball is in fact basicly an Elf Passing game... I think (or atleast what I imagin what an Elf Passing game is)... It all really depends on where the ball lands when I rechive the ball. Sometimes I hang back, and sometimes I am up close/amongst the other in my team. If I am the one kicking off, then I do still have my thrower on the field, and make sure that he hovers somewhere close by to where the opponent has the ball. So as soon as I manage to knock it loose, I have a bigger chance of my Thrower being in range of it to pick it up, and pass it to the guy I almost always have hanging around somewhere close enough to score a TD.

    The Kick-Off Return allowes me to not have to worry to much about having more then 1 person in the back getting the ball, it also gives me a chance to move to where the ball is going to land, so an extra chance of catching the ball even befor my turn starts. It gives me a lot of options, and to some extent negates the fact that the opponent might have a Kicker on his team.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  8. Ugnash

    Ugnash New Member

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    Yep I would certainly say that is the accepted logic (especially as you say if you have Ag boost on the thrower) but having a gutter thrower doesn't take him out of the equation - far from it in fact. Most times when a thrower has the ball your opponent knows that you are either going to pass or at least run up and hand-off - that makes your play that little more predictable. With a gutter thrower his speed and agility allows him to just as easily pass or run the ball keeping your opponent guessing... especially as half the time I don't even know what offence I'm going to play lol - but with the ball in the gutter thrower's paws you'll find defences loathe to over-commit buying you even more time and giving you more of the initiative.

    As an added plus, the lack of throwers means a saving on TV and less positionals to protect as well as the ability to bring in more linerats to take the strain.

    Give it a go - you may find it works for you :)
     
  9. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    I think things may get just a tad predictable with that, after the opponent has taken out 2 Gutter Runners. Then one of the remaining ones has to stay behind in your own half with the ball, while the other one is the only real scoring threat.

    Having a Thrower gives you more options. That's worth 20k, easy.
     
  10. Ugnash

    Ugnash New Member

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    Well don't knock it until you've tried it is my advice...

    Because I have more players to protect my grunners with I am seldom down to less than three grunners at any one time (apart from the occasional kicking that will happen to any skaven side from time to time thrower or no thrower). Besides - even with two grunners you should be able to open up most defences...
     
  11. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    My thoughts on how to build Gutter Runners is the same as how I build all my Human Catchers.

    Block, Dauntless, Tackle, Jump Up. In that order, and after JU it gets a bit fuzzy as to what I want and not.

    On doubles I will usualy take Guard, and as a 2nd double I am not sure what I take... possibly MB or NoS. For a Gutter Runner on a double I would not do anything different really, first one being Guard. A 2nd double would either be a MB or Claws, and a 3rd double I might get Horns or NoS. It all depend on when I get these skills. 3 doubles in a row and I probably have Guard, MD and Horns.

    Basicly what I am doing is building really fast mini-Blitzers. Who's job it is to be able to move around the pitch and get into possition to assist in fights, or to take an importent blitz if none else can, hunt loose ballcarriers, steal the ball if possible, etc. They are there to harass the opponent where every they may be on the pitch.

    Many might think that ST2 is to low for such a role... and sure... it is. But Dauntless does balance that out a little bit, being a 2+ roll vs a ST3 opponent, or a 3+ vs a ST4 opponent. And since I am so used to dealing with playing Humans with AG3, dealing with a 3+ roll is nothing to me, I do it every time I play basicly, and I do it happily.

    Once these types of players, like Gutter Runners and Human Catchers etc, have Block+Dauntless+Tackle they basicly stop being my main focus for scoring TD's. Even after getting Block, and especially after Tackle, I start to slow them down a little bit with gaining SPP, and spread it out amongst the other characters. I still score TD's with them, but mostly if it happends to be the only option at the time, or if they happend to be close to skill.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  12. 20phoenix

    20phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I think you need more flexibility with them. They are your primary ball handlers and primary blitzers once developed so you need options for different situations.

    My preferred setup is a wrestle/strip, a wrestle/tackle with both of these taking dauntless/horns (depending if they rolls doubles before getting to that skill choice). One gutter goes the retriever route - block, big hand, sidestep, leap. This tends to be the first gutter that rolls doubles (preferrably not a wrestler) The fourth is a utility spot depending on rolls. On various skaven teams i've had this has been filled with the mobile guard, one turner or pass blocker. The great thing about gutters is they are so versatile and you don't need to be tied down to cookie cutter builds.
     
  13. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    You shouldn't build Gutters all the same. Two with Wrestle (at least one of them also with Strip) helps a ton. Sidestep can help you keep a cage from moving past you near the sidelines, not to mention how easy it makes one-turning. But Dauntless does definitely go well with some of them... depends on the Gutter's role.

    Just going one size fits all of them, is not optimal.

    (although I would be tempted to just pick Guard on all Gutter doubles, because that is how I roll)
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  14. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    The Skaven Thrower debate is timeless, never going to be an answer to that one!

    Personally I side with taking them but I can see how not using them can also work.
     
  15. 20phoenix

    20phoenix Well-Known Member

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    So guard first skill then because we all know that IS how you roll
     
  16. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    Please don't take what I say or how I say them wrong. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. It's just that when I write about things I like, about how I do things and all that, I tend to get a little worked up and extreamely focused on it, and I write it till it "sounds right". I want to in detail try and explain my views and how I see it, and from what angle I am coming etc.

    Normally if someone ask me about how to play a game/race/etc, I will try and explain as many different aspects and points of view about it as I can. Not just my own, because I know that my style is often unusual, to say the least. And it is by far not the most optimal, easiest, or even recommended, way of doing it. This is a style I have developed over the last 17 years with BB, so it is deeprooted. And one I don't care to try and dig up and cut away. :p

    This has so far been my biggest post here... when I was about to post it it told me it was to big, 1300+ characters to big (10000 being max apperantly)! So... yeah... there's that... :D :rolleyes:

    Flexibility can mean a lot of things though. My particular flavour of flexibility revolves around the fighting aspect of it, and especially the "if I lose this player half of my strategy and tactics won't go out of the window, because I don't have a replacement that can do the same job" kind of a thing. The only time the later can happend for me is if they take out my Thrower (and my Kicker), but that's not to big of a deal really. Because I throw pass' with other players not suited for it regularly anyway.

    Wrestle is good, and makes it easier to get an opponent down and knocking the ball loose, but it does not give me any Cas SPP. Sure a block vs block fight does not give SPP either if I roll a :bothdown:, but not everything has Block (or wrestle). So I rather take a bet on being able to every and then earning more Cas by having Block, then a 100% certainty of not getting any Cas SPP from rolling a :bothdown: with Wrestle.

    Do I close of certain types of tactics by doing so? Sure, I do, but it's a risk I am willing to take. I can guess that a person seeing my team with no wrestle or strip ball would think "well that means my ballcarrier is safe, he has block dodge ST4 after all, the odds are to low", but then they are sadly mistaken... because just how willing are they in leaving it in the hands of the dice? I am perfectly fine in leaving it in the hands of the dice, because I know that eventually that character WILL go down. For catchers/gutters it's just a 3+ Dauntless roll, and then a 33% chance on a 1D roll, and that guy is down. But chances are that I have 2 guys on him, which means I have two chances to hit that 33%. And once he goes down... he might get badly hurt... or worse.

    Another aspect of my version of flexibility, as mentioned above, is that even if you take out one of my Catchers/Gutters, I will have 1 or 3 more (depending on if I would go with 2 or 4 of them) just like him to do the exact same job. It's not optimal to have all of them be the same. But I would rather build my team to have a bit more survivability vs any team, then to be able to deal with the ball etc better. I find a catcher/gutter/simmilar original ball and maneuver handling skills to usually be enough from the get go.

    Could they be better at those jobs? Sure, of course they could. But in my assessment I feel it would hurt their ability to stand up for themselves vs stronger enemy models way to much for my liking. Those handling skills might get added to them later on, but almost never at the expense of being able to fight almost anything. A stat increase (ST, AG or MA) will take presedence though. And a 2nd or more doubles could get in the way of it at times (depends on previous skill rolls), but I have choicen regular skills befor over additional doubles due to how importent I feel those core regular skills are to my style.

    Yet another aspect of my style of flexability is that I just don't really ever have to worry to much about exacly where I place each individual character in each type. Because even if they do get out of place, they can still handle them selves alright.

    The only models in my teams that don't get the same "to be able to fight anywhere" treatment for me, are the Throwers, they get heavily built towards their job... passing the ball. Or atleast one of them. Once I am done with a AG3 thrower he throws a long bomb on a anything from a 4+ to a 2+, depending on how lucky I was with skill rolls. Also my Kickers skill progression is one level behind of course, since he get's Kick first, but even he get's built like the rest of my linemen (Block, Tackle, Dauntless).

    I think my style of versatility basicly limits a bashy players options as to what to do when he's got the ball at kick-off. All he can only really choice at this point is "do I go left, right or center?". He rarely has the priviledge of being able to find the best option to choice a weak side, because all my characters have somewhat the same skills. Each defence side is close to identical. So he can't really find that "Oh this side is weaker because these two models don't do this or that". Usually the weakest point of my defence set up is the center, but that's not always really an optimum path to always take. He's better served going down one particular side, since he only has to protect 3 sides of his cage.

    Versus faster or more agile teams, my teams tend to be pretty strong fightwise. Because the second skill I give to almost all of my players is tackle. They are going to have a wall of tackle standing in their way, dodge is rarely going to help them. And be sure that I am going to take every opportunity I get to hit as many players as I possibly can. Which does includes 1D rolls, because there is only a 1/6th chance that my player goes down from that (1/3rd if it has wrestle, but does not count since it does not end my turn), but it's a 2/6th to 3/6th of a chance that you go down. And those are good enough odds for me.

    Also, if the opponent happends to have wrestle? That's perfectly fine by me! Because even if I don't like that my guy goes down to, it also means that player him self goes down. So it's your own player who is the cause of him going down, and as such being the cause of me possibly getting through to your ball carrier. That is one big reason why I don't like Wrestle, because it's a skill that can and will come back and haunt your own team in the worst of moments. If he had block he would have still been standing and still been a bigger threat to me, then if he had Wrestle and went down due to that.

    Also, a catcher/gutter/etc built down a certain path, like stealing the ball, or the one with guard who get's in everywhere, etc, are no less cookie cutter builds then my own. If anything, on certain levels, that type of cookie cutting is even more predicable then mine is, because I know exacly what every single model is good at, and you might only have 1 of them, and as such can deal with them accordingly. I on the other hand have 2-4 of them who are pretty strong in fights, and can do everything else to some extent. Not as good as specialists clearly, but good enough for me, they are also not as easy to take out, but can take you out a bit easier then most none fighting specialists can.

    Don't know how clear it is by now... but when it comes to BB that is what I am looking for. I take the whole "Jack-of-all-trades" thing connected to the humans seriously with almost everything I play in BB, almost extremely so, atleast down one particular path of it. I am aware that my style is not the most optimal, but I am ok with that, I like to play BB this way. That's not to say that I always build my players the exact same way. Sometimes I do build those "leap into the fray, knock the ball loose, steal it, and disapear like nothing happend" types of builds. But they are almost always a result of chance, often by certain stat increases etc. Or it might be a particular flavour to the particular race I played or something. But those types of builds are more of the exceptions then the rules.

    A team where close to all of them have block+tackle+dauntless after their 2-4th skill, and a couple, to several, guards as well, means that no matter what the opponent does, my characters do not have to worry to much about being in the wrong place or outmatched. My linemen can knock down a big guy or a blodger just as easy as my Blitzers can. And my catchers/gutters/etc types of players are not that far behind either for that matter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  17. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    This isn't about SPP, this is about winning. It's not an attack on you, if you want the low overhead of 'everyone can do the same job', it's just pointing out to new players reading that, that it is not the optimal.

    'Eventually' is not a good approach for Skaven to take. They don't have the armor to stand around waiting for that chance to come about through brute force (like rolling 1d blocks hoping for a POW). Nor can most of the team dodge back and stand in the way like elves would.

    Much of the time, you get one chance, then the ball is caged and either you must be built to break it loose (Leap+Wrestle+Strip), accept the score is going to happen and lie down out of the way, or keep throwing fragile rats at it (which has good odds of weakening you for the latter half/the one-turning attempt after they've scored).

    Wrestle is a way for your rats to take down a higher-ST, more skilled player, on the opponent's turn. You should be able to see the benefit of that.

    Wrestle is also, obviously, a great tool for blitzing the ball-carrier, since you can assume they have Block (and with elves, Dodge). Wrestle adds one more result to the side of the die on which they go down, without needing a situational skill like Tackle, which might be utterly wasted against a Dodge-less bashy team.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  18. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    I don't take it as an attack on me either, and neither am I trying to attack anyone for that matter. Was just describing my way of doing things.

    Somewhere in there I know I wrote that I know that my way of doing things is not optimal. Also that when asked what to do with a certain team/game/etc, I will try and give all the different sides of it, the different viewpoints, including my own (which I either start with, or end with).The different viewpoints had basicly been mentioned already so I only went for my own here. I do explain to people that my way of doing things though is not optimal (which I know I did in my... mountainous sized post... :rolleyes: ), and is basicly not recommended. It's a "do at your own risk" type of things.

    I am well aware of the downsides of doing things this way. It's not like I am unaware of the upsides of doing things other ways. I have just made a choice that "this is my way to victory".

    Of course I do see the benefits of it, but I also see the negatives of the skill (which I feel outweighs all of the possitives). I much rather have my model have a bigger chance of being standing at the start of my turn, with his full available MA at his disposal. That is of course possible for a Gutter, since he can get jump up. But again, I prefer that he was standing then not at the start. For one it means that the chance of him being fouled is less likely then if he had Wrestle, amongst other things.

    I am certain that all the people who do foul a lot are thrilled seeing that some of the opponents best players have Wrestle, because the chance of getting to foul them goes from 33% per dice, to 50% per dice, and their turn did not even end when their own player was taken down at the same time. So for a fouler it's a win-win scenario vs such a model. Of course they them selves become vulnerable to be fouled as well, but they atleast have the option to make that choice, as to who takes the initial attack, and the possability to protect their own downed player as well.

    As for Tackle. True, it would be a waste against a team who does not have a single Dodge. But few teams end up in that spectrum. Most teams usually have atleast one or a few, and some several teams have a lot of it. It's one of the most frustrating things to meet a team with a lot of Dodge if you don't have Tackle. That's why Tackle is one of the first skills I pick for most models.

    As I probably mentioned in my Wall of Text. I build my teams to be able to take on all kinds of teams, in all kinds of situations, with (almost) any kind of model I have on my team. And since that is the foundation of my idea of what the team should be, that means pretty much every model on my team get's Block, Tackle, and Dauntless. I still have 2-3 more skills slots to fill for each character, so it's not like I am compleatly out of options of what to do with certain roles.

    Half of the turns you don't have any (or very little) choice in the matter of which of your models get's paired up with which of the opponents models. So if I can mitigate some of that by having Block, Tackle and Dauntless, on almost all of my players, then I feel that I have gained atleast something. It means I don't have to worry to much about where to place for example my Blitzers to be of the most use, or my Catcher type of players, etc. Don't get me wrong, I still try and place my models in good possitions for their type, but if I made a mistake it's not the end of the world.

    Do you think all the Elven players think I wasted a a skill slot on Tackle for all of my models? Or how about those people who partly rely on a certain few models in their team to use Dodge to do certain things for them? Or how about all those teams with a lot of high ST models? Is it a waste to have Dauntless on all of my characters then? My teams makes Dodge compleatly useless, and mitigates a fair amount of the high ST models out there as well. Of course, in short tournaments playing this way might not be the best. This is clearly a longterm kind of thing. So would only really work in long tournaments, the public games in the lobby of the pc game, or if you play a lot of single games vs your friends on the TT.

    Think about it a little, think of the implications for almost any kind of team meeting a team like this, where close to all models have Block+Tackle+Dauntless (plus what ever else they might have, like Guard, MB, etc). With no Dodge, that "dodge away and reform" play suddenly get's more dangerous for Elves, and placing strong models somewhere to lock down certain parts of my team is not as powerful anymore. In regular teams where you might have a few models with Tackle, and a few models with Dauntless, etc, the player can shut down a certain part of the opponents strategy due to that. Because they know where to go and who to focus on, etc. But with my teams it's normally not that clear, because to some extent it does not matter where they place their models. They will still be at risk of getting their teeth knocked out, and the ball knocked free, even if my models might have been placed badly or gotten into a bad situation.

    Do you not see the value in that?

    Again, my way = not optimal. But it does have some merit I think. Never had an oppertunity to really test it in a tournament though (as far as I remember), because once I started to build my teams like this, my friendship group had already started to disperse across Sweden. So my style could turn out to be a huge failure. :p But since I only have the original Cyanide version I feel I want to wait until I can get the last version befor I can make a final test of it (it works for me in the singleplayer... but that's the singleplayer). Hopefully in 5 days... but my current income is limited, to say the least. :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  19. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    Here's my thing about the above statement. What's better against a team that has high strength and spams Guard? Dauntless or Fend?

    You won't be winning the guard war, no matter how many doubles you take. Orcs, Nurgle, Undead, Chaos, Dwarves, CDwarves, etc are just going to say 'dauntless huh? well equal strength is fine with my five-eight guarders to help. And they don't require a 2+, 3+, 4+ roll to achieve that block back at 2-dice (where you'll be lucky to get 1 die blocks if you don't fail the roll and rerolls are at a premium on any team... elf disease?).

    It's a nice combo, don't get me wrong... but Block/Guard/MB/Stand Firm trumps it and is spammed frequently by bash teams as their strength (heck Block/Guard trumps it). Nevermind that even getting a level 3 linerat is like asking for miracles to happen. it's not the gutters that lose you games as skaven... its having ONLY the gutters left that does it.
    Plus, even if you have a guard player, that's the one who's going to be targeted on the block back, with no dauntless help. it's a one-way street that only puts you equal to an opponent, not above them.

    Playing into an opponents strength just doesn't seem like good strategy when you have other strengths to utilize.
     
  20. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

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    As a skaven coach you won't get many blocks. If you are going up against bash you will be either ST or guard down, and probably at an AV deficit too. Tackle and dauntless will only get you so far, and you'll be carted off the pitch in short order.

    Against AG4 finesse teams you will find that they bash your players away and don't leave anyone in base contact at the start of your turn. If they do, they'll still win the bash war as they will have an armour and/or dodge advantage.

    Against a competent opponent you'll basically only get your blitz most turns, which is why your blitz needs to be really really good. It needs to be a killer blitz with a claw/mb stormvermin (doubles on vermin are golden), or a strategic get-the-ball-now blitz. In the latter case failing to get the ball can leave half your team in contact and cause a cascade of injuries which mean you lose. Those strategic blitzes you need to maximise your chances, so you'll want strip ball and wrestle.