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Rules Horrors of Tzeentch

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by hungrygnome, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    This is a thread designed for the purpose of theorycrafting up one of the remaining 2 chaos teams. With Nurgle and Khorne out, that leaves Tzeentch and Slannesh.

    I figure, as the lord of change, secrets, and sorcery, a 4 STR chaos warrior type position doesnt fit well.

    Tzeentch - Warhammer 40K Wiki - Space Marines, Chaos, planets, and more if you need any background fluff.

    The notable demons of this factions are pink and blue horrors, the most prolific of his legion of daemons.

    I figure a pink horror to be 5 3 2 7 Foul Appearance, Regeneration with M access on normal rolls.

    Blue horrors are what happens when Pink horror is killed, and it Splits into 2 smaller horrors that try to destroy each other half the time. I figure either they can be completely discounted, or else have them be like goblins on a Orc team... you can take 0-4, but more than 2 is unlikely.

    Blue Horror: 5 2 3 7 stunty, dodge, Disturbing Presence with M on normals also. unique function of being a very mobile disturbing, while with mutations can be a suprising ball recovery unit, hampered by the fact that only mutations on normals... M only isnt actually all that bad, as there are plenty of mutations that are very good.

    Next up are Flamers, which i see no good way to do without them being a 0-1 unit with bombardier.

    Then come the screamers, manta ray like creature with razor sharp tusks and ability to terrify mortals. These I see as similar to a werewolf positional on Undead. Claws/hypnotic gaze seems appropriate. If any unit would have a 4 AGI, as the team shouldnt have a 4STR positional IMO, this would be it.

    Discs are mobile platforms, and I dont see them as being appropriate.

    The last unit is the one I would see as the "Big Guy" unit, even if he doesn't have 5 STR. An expensive, 0-1 positional. The issue I encounter is in what Neg. Trait they would have, as they are generally known to be be intelligent and highly cunning and manipulative.

    The Lords of Change are equivalent to a Bloodthirster in rank and power, though in a much different fashion. The are extremley powerful vulture like humanoids with vast sorcerous abilities.

    Ability wise I cant even begin to consider a stat line without some serious debate first regarding overall team abilities and balance.


    NOW, before some of you start to rant about how this is Bloodbowl, and not Warhammer.. except one fact, if nothing else. They are based around the same concepts and fluff. Different Universe, same basic setup. Bloodbowl is almost a DIRECT line from warhammer fantasy. Tomb Kings = Undead/Khemri. Vampire Counts = Vampires. Ogre Kingdoms = Ogre. Etc, etc...
     
  2. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    I still think the Screamers should have No Hands, and the only tools for giving 'I can see/change the future, oooooh' vibes are really Fend, Hypno and cheap rerolls.

    Or Pro on everyone? :p
     
  3. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    its not about seeing the future really, hes about mutations, evolution, and manipulating things to his Grand Plan. SO that has 2 paths... re-roll skill centric, or mutation centric. And i se him more as a Mutation oriented with access to all the skill groups like skaven are.. yet S access being the smallest, if at all
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  4. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    Mutations just means Claw, boo.
     
  5. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    mutations to me is about all the situational pieces.. claw is only so so when you dont have reliable STR access to support easy 2d blocks
     
  6. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

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    I think Tzeentch is by far the hardest chaos god to try to make a BB team out of without adding new skills or rules, but kudos for trying.
     
  7. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    I agree, they are such a diverse set of abilities, that getting them close without overpowering them horribly will be hard.
     
  8. Starks

    Starks New Member

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    I think you should also look at how your team will enrich the blood bowl experience by adding a team that offers new ways of playing and then translate the fluff into a rooster

    The chaos team we have now are the simple chaos focusing on bash. The khorne team we have been offered is supposed to be bashy and they translated the blood thirst by spamming frenzy

    As regards for teams who have mutation access you have the rats focusing on movement, chaos dwarves and underworld which is a tier 3 team

    Maybe there is a place for an Agility team with mutation access with no natural access to strength. The god of change and the focus on scheming should translate into a team that has competences for ruining the opponent plans and offers great versatilty with game changing capabilities. The nega trait you will be looking for are solitary, wild animal for the psychic frenziness. Maybe bloodthirst to translate the inabilty to stay in the real worl for long for your horrors that will also translate the fact that they risk to jump at each others throats

    As for the competences, side step, fend, wrestle, jump up, foul appearance pass block shadowing diving tacle for ruining opponents plans leap, hail mary pass, NOS, dump off, strip ball for game changing feats along with hypnotic gaze of course

    an agility focused big guy would be fun to see and very new to the game, their strength would be the ability to place surgeon attacks with only 2 or 3 specific competences to circonviene their strength weakness. As for the stat line maybe going the root taken by the khorne rooster meaning one great champion and the rest with normal agi+strength stat along with average to low armor

    You could go also the route taken by underworld that is mixing races to underline the facts that Tzeentch attracts and then ensnare souls for his own scheming

    Well funny exercise none the less

    ah and the ability to induce a sorcerer at half the cost!
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  9. Basilisk9466

    Basilisk9466 Member

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    I'd probably say Slaanesh would be a better fit for an AGI/mutation loadout... Tzeentch feels more like it should be a skills frontloader than a high statted team.
     
  10. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    pink horrors seem pretty simple and make sense as statted out in the lineman slot

    The Screamers could easily be Hypno gaze/no hands/dodge/AG4 pieces in a 0-2 blitzer/specialist style slot....AM access? I know it says they can use their tusks (which might translate into block or MB, but at that point they end up with a rather haphazard set of redundant abilities), alternatively they could lose Hypno gaze and get block and/or MB

    Heralds of Tzeentch Seem to fulfill the role of black orcs or flesh golems, probably a 0-2 slot with 4ST....5 4 2 8 Regen with GSM access on normals

    Lords of change should probably be a 0-2 slot, for blood bowl reasons more than fluff reasons. They could basically be something super strong, like a vampire....6 3 4 8 regen/hypnotic gaze with no drawback, at something like 120k and GAS access (trading a lower strength for no blood lust compared to vampires)

    finally, an interesting idea, though POSSIBLY game changing, would be the flamer being a 4 2 3 7 unit with bombardier and NOT having secret weapon, in a 0-1 slot

    result:
    50k 0-16 Pink Horrors 5 3 2 8 Foul Appearance - Normal M, Double GASP
    90k 0-2 Screamer 6 3 4 8 No Hands/Hypno Gaze/Dodge - Normal AM, Double GSP
    OR
    70k 0-2 Screamer 6 3 3 8 No Hands/block -normal AM, Double GSP
    90k 0-2 Heralds 5 4 2 8 Regen - Normal GSM, Double AP
    120k(140k with pro starting) 0-2 Lords 6 3 4 8 Regen/Hypno Gaze/(Pro?) - Normal GASM, Double P
    60k? 0-1 Flamer 4 2 3 7 Bombardier - Normal A, Double GSP

    that gives a full positional 11-man roster at anywhere from 820k to 900k
    rerolls probably at 60 or 70k , apothecary available. Star players: Morg....with how awesome the lords are, they don't need more stars - they also don't need them considering how well they'd be able to use the normal inducements (especially bribes and wizards, with free movement around the pitch due to hypno)

    Other options include trying to make the Lords even more awesome by giving them 4 ST and making them vampire carbon copies with no blood lust....but since some vampire teams actually function with only 2 vampires, it feels like having 2 no-drawback vamps and a scattering of positionals would be REALLY overpowered.

    The team's "schtick" could easily be the 2 or 4 hypno pieces, and the scattering of super-specialized positionals. It would functionally be similar to a necromantic team, with 2 ST4 pieces to roadblock during gameplay, and a small scattering of AG4 pieces (only 2 of them able to ball handle) instead of the necro team's high speed. I see the team playing like a mix between necro and vamps, since your pieces are so specialized (only 3 players able to pick up the ball on a 3+!) it would REALLY require paying attention to where you moved and what you had each player doing, but you also would have the versatility of a necro team to do a little bashing, a little dodging, and a little screwing with your opponent (imagine the hypno screamers with Diving tackle!)

    feel free to pick on whatever....it seemed a nifty idea to take and run with..

    Final self-criticisms of the team as i've written it:
    - poor ball handling OPTIONS....they pick up just fine, but your choices of who to grab the ball with are fairly light.
    - intrudes on the vampire's Schtick with 4 gaze players available
    - intrudes on the goblin's turf with bombardier, and rubs it in even more without secret weapon!
    -screamers seem wrong....game balance-wise...they're either over or under powered, but they just don't seem right.
     
  11. Stryke

    Stryke Member

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    Decided to have a crack at this and ended up going in a very different direction.

    [​IMG]

    Okay that looks kinda insane initially which is the point as the theme of the team is insanity specifically inflicting it on the opposing coach with using rarer skills to change the ways the game flows in a matter more befitting of Tzeentch. Khorne is pure uncontrolled bashy, Nurgle is slow and defensive, so Tzeentch is about mixing a bit of flair while messing with the other side.

    Firstly no screamers or discs, yeah they're thematic for the side but I don't think they fit on the pitch so they're out.

    Going by Khorne and Nurgle the one God sides are based on some human worshipers, rarer daemons and maybe a few beastman so that's what I've used to fill out the roster.

    The Cultists were damn tempting to give Side Step to, but I think that'd make them too good so I've taken a nod from Pact and basically made these guys your untapped potential with free access to mutations along with being able to build a thrower or two to help out your Horrors.

    The Horrors are basically all about bringing the flair play on an Agi 3 side with Big Hand being a nasty surprise when the ball gets loose. No mutation access as they've got everything they always have already. Have the potential to be absolutely hilarious with an Agi up roll if you're lucky.

    Tzaangors are the Great Changers favourites and can basically develop any way they like as long as it fits the great plan. Skills are all about getting in the way when they need to and getting others out the way when it's better suited.

    Flamers are another tricky one, but I think this a good way of representing them. I can definitely see a case for making them 0-1, but with no MB starting off and only available on a double they ain't going to hit that hard and they make up for some of what the rest of the team lacks on the pitch. Multiple Block for setting everything on fire, sure it's not that useful but it can be situationally so which is what the team is all about. Disturbing presence for once more setting everything on fire along with messing with the opponent. Shadowing seems out of place, but they're damn fast and are usually describe as moving all over the place erratically as they burn and Shadowing seemed a good representation of that. Shouldn't kick in too often with Ma6, but will be entertaining when it does. Skill access is another attempt at a nerf though Side Step and Diving Tackle would be great picks.

    Finally Tzeentch are all about manipulating fate so cheap rerolls of course and I was damn tempted to make them only 40k :D

    I've attempted to aim the team at roughly Tier 2 as it's always best to aim lower when making your own teams. Sure they've got some nasty surprises, but are damn flimsy with no defensive skills so shouldn't be too mad hopefully.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  12. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    thread moved by request
     
  13. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    I think making the Cultists MA6 with Sidestep would go nicely...

    Tzaangors are over-costed, even with A access.

    But two ST5 players without a nega-trait? Their A access is their nega-trait? Hmm. Love the possibilities of Shadowing on them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  14. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    i find shadowing with a move 6 player to fail too often. and I think pink horrors should be linemen , with Cultists being a positional, as any Tzeentch cultist is almost invariably a sorcerer. I think that if the team is going to have any superior STR on the team, it should be a 0-2 4 STR 4 AGI unit, and no more than that...
     
  15. Pottsy

    Pottsy Member

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    I thought of a rule that would make a tzeentch team interesting. Each of their linemen start off with a random mutation. If I were using this rule though, I would avoid designing the rest of their players with specific roles in mind or making them too gimmicky.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  16. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    I dont think we should implement new rules. Tzeentch is an intellectual, scheming god. Thats why I think the team shouldnt have an abundance of STR on it. While also the lord of change, which is why every player should start with 1 mutation at least. They should be a tactical, strategy based team, along the lines of a hybrid. If Chaos is to undead, then Tzeentch would be like necromantic. And I dont think any non-secret weapon player should ever be given No-hands.
     
  17. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    I definitely believe that since the default Chaos are the ones you can build with mutations the most to your own liking, every other Chaos team should come more 'pre-packaged', have some kind of focus.

    So, starting mutations/skills, but not M access on normal rolls to everyone.
     
  18. Stryke

    Stryke Member

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    That's kinda the idea with Shadowing on Ma6, sure it's usually not going to kick in often but it will on occasion and it's a nasty surprise for the coach that doesn't consider it. Also go check out the Warhammer stat line as Flamers are spot on as far as strength goes compared to Ogres.

    Given that Plaguebearers and Bloodletters aren't linos I can't see why Horrors would be either and hell while every Cultist certainly isn't a sorcerer (Tzeentch loves politicians especially) Horrors always are.

    How about removing the M access for the Cultists and Tzaangors to doubles. Changing Cultists to 6337 but have Two Heads instead of Side Step for the same price to represent their increased arcane awareness as it were. Other than 90k for the Tzaangors sounds reasonable?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  19. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    also, A access on normals for flamers really limits them. You have all of 3 skills of use ( SS, DT, Dodge). After that, its sure feet and sprint because nothing else is useful.. Also, the only accurate depiction of a flamer involves bombardier.

    I also think all of Tzeentch should have M on normals. He is the lord of change, the thousand sons army were known for developing rampant mutations ( before they became souls in armor), and if generic chaos get it, along with some of nurgle, they deserve it too IMO.

    Considering Tzaangors are a type of Beastmen, couldnt they be the linemen? then move Cultists into a 0-4 and give them Disturbing Presence , to represent a psyker? Give the Horrors FA, because of their ever changing, and usually hideous, appearance.
     
  20. Stryke

    Stryke Member

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    That's the idea with it limiting them to allow you to have two of them. Anyway I really don't see why they need bombardier. Sure Blood Bowl is it's own setting but it takes it's inspiration from Warhammer and there they're described as being equally good in melee. Plus Flamers while chaotic don't burn themselves like a dropped bomb roll would imply.