1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Bretonian Ideas to improve Bretonnians

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Mr. Ghoti, Mar 24, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Mr. Ghoti

    Mr. Ghoti Member

    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Indiana
    Country Flag:
    From playing Blood Bowl II with my friends, I've come to admire the Bretonnian team. They're quirky, have a much different feel than the other human teams, and in the long run? They suck. I've never seen a Bret team do very well past about the 1500 TV mark, but that may just be my experience.

    So what is it about the team that causes it to lag behind? The Peasants are dirt cheap with a fairly good pitch controlling/roadblock skill in fend. They have meager stats in 6327, but dont NEED AG3 or higher as you should have better positionals for that. AV7 is very low, but they're designed to be worthless and easily replaceable. Great fouling pieces, and when given wrestle or kick are great pitch control pieces.

    The Yeomen are where I have a few problems. 6338 is bog standard for a human, and with a starting skill in wrestle makes this player a great addition to the team. These guys are "human blitzer-lites", with GS skill access. Again, like the peasants these guys can excel in pitch control and piece removal. With 1 skill these players can have wrestle and tackle to down most blodge players or ball carriers, easily opening up a gang foul from a peasant. If there's a wardancer a wrackle yeoman can reach, it's usually worth it to blitz them down. Furthermore this player, through S skill access, gets skills like guard, stand firm, mighty blow, and juggernaut. Most of which are great support options and help AGAIN with pitch control. Mighty blow is a tricky one, as wrestle doesn't help at all with it. This means that the yeoman needs to get even more skills to be on the same "killer" duty many other blitzers have IMMEDIATE access to. This also means that throughout the course of a match, you're only removing players through fouling or lucky armor breaks, unlike normal humans or teams with better removal skills.

    Lastly we have the Knights, one of the best and valuable positionals in comparison to other team compositions. Lore-wise these players hog all the stardom and laud their importance over the rest of the team. And they definitely do pull their weight on the pitch, but something still seems off about them. 110k is a good price for such an important piece. Slann blitzers are nearly the same in ability, with just as many skills, dark elf witches are about the same, with the same number of utility skills, but different stats. So i feel that the knight is almost where it should be for its price, but I believe it should be changed for the improvement of the team. Knights start out with an impressive "human blitzer" statline of 7338, with block, catch, AND dauntless as starting skills, and the interesting GAP skill access. Having access to passing at first seems wonderful, with all 4 knights having catch, you can have great control of the ball around the pitch and always get the ball where you need to go!

    But there's few skills under P, and even less the knights actively want to take. Normally I would recommend a knight taking leader, and be done with it. There are better utility skills that can be taken, and that NEED to be taken. Dodge, tackle, strip ball, sure hands, sidestep, diving tackle, jump up, all of these important "secondary" skills that turn knights into beasts. Since knights dont start with any passing skills, it will take a long time to get them anywhere near the efficiency of your standard human thrower. And don't even get me started on AG4 elf throwers. Granted, many of the skills throwers take after pass, leader, or accurate are block or dodge or sure hands, meaning that if one knight takes the pass skill they immediately become a "high leveled thrower" that can level up further, but that skyrockets the TV if you think that way. Sure, you can get a sure hands/pass/accurate knight at level IV that has a great statline, and can still hit hard through block and dauntless, but compared to similarly developed throwers that is a TON of extra TV.

    So what all can we do to improve the team and still keep the feel of the team? I have a couple ideas but I'd love to hear your opinions about what you would change.

    I like the feel of the knight-first mentality of the team, and i believe that is the crux of what makes this team go. Knights sre the best of the best in all the land, the yeomen that squire beneath them are capable humans, and the lowly peasants are hardly worth their salt. If we modify 1 stat on these players, we encapsulate that "progression" of skill and worth.

    Peasants stay pitiful at 6327 with G access and the fend skill as i believe that keeps them at the perfect spot for relatively untrained and unarmored fodder.

    Yeomen stay at an "improved" 6338 with GS skills as they are normal armored humans, and while wrestle is a unique skill that keeps them alive, their S access doesnt mesh well with it. I think the team can survive with them keeping wrestle, but I have anither idea: replace wrestle with tackle. Their damage output increases slightly against agile teams, they still have access to wrestle OR block if they want, their S access has a better option through mighty blow, and they keep their positional name of "blockers" fairly well. Defensively they will lag behind a bit compared to human blitzers, but these guys are also 20k cheaper with only 1MA difference. Not too bad. Also they would still stay unique as the only piece that starts with only tackle instead of wrestle.

    Lastly the knights will continue the "progression" feel of the team. The best of the best, wearing full plate armor onto the pitch and hogging all of the glory. I would change them to be 7339, with GAS skills instead of P, and keep the block, catch, and dauntless skills. I always found it weird that fully armored knights are still only AV8. While passing is an interesting choice, I feel that dedicating a knight to ball handling/passing duty does the knights a disservice. With 4 more players having access to S skills, and putting them on block/dauntless players, the knights can do some real damage. I'm sure that increasing the AV of the knights will increase their price, but I'm not sure if the swap from P to S skills would change the price. Having GAS skills is an accolade only slann blitzers and vampires can otherwise claim, but exemplifies the "best of the best" and "do anything" lore behind the knights.

    With S access on knights AND Yeomen, the offensive side can come out and higher TV Brets can pull their weight. But with knights having S access instead of P a couple problems arise. Brets weren't the best passing team to begin with, most coaches saving a pass for a last ditch effort and instead doing running plays and catch making hand offs easier. This doesn't change how coaches play the team, and doubles getting leader and pass still leaves an option to have a "thrower". The second issue is that combining the S skill swap on the knights with the tackle skill swap on yeomen might push this team's damage output a little past what was intended. After a few games you could have 8 players with block/tackle/guard/mighty blow all over the place. That may be too much, especially in the highest TV range. So I'm still up in the air on whether to swap wrestle with tackle. I like the idea and i feel that it encapsulates more of a interference piece than wrestle otherwise would, but at the same time I understand that at the 1500 TV mark you can have 8 players with block, tackle, and mighty blow, making them some of the best in the game at removing players. It would essentially turn them into faster more agile dwarves. So I'm fine with keeping wrestle on them if it causes too much of an issue.

    What are your thoughts? How do you feel Brets are faring in the current state of the game? Do you agree or disagree with my proposed changes? What would you do to improve them?
     
  2. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,024
    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Cyanide Username:
    Ravers
    Country Flag:
    Sorry but that seems very overpowered. You're basically proposing giving a team 8 Strength access pieces, combined with 4 Agility, and giving them a load of starting skills on top. With no downside other than that they have the Human stat line, so at really high TV that remains a problem.

    Mid TV though they would be amazing. You could end up with 4 Block Guard Tackle Blockers, and 4 Blodge MB or Guard Knights, rounded off with a few Fend fodder pieces with a DP thrown in. And you would get all that cheap too, only lvl 3 needed!

    As to the Knights getting AV9 because they are wearing full plate armour, this does make sense. However, the obvious downside of wearing full plate armour is reduced mobility, so naturally the knights would need to take a Movement and agility stat hit to compensate:p.
     
  3. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

    Messages:
    2,724
    Country Flag:
    As for Brets not doing well they won the OCC title multiple times so have had far more success over there than humans who have never won despite being around for 20 more seasons.
    So IMO they are already one of the better teams and having 8 S access players is too good if you are keeping the 4 AG access.

    Switching wrestle for tackle would be OK but I am not sure it is an improvement.
    It means that rookies will be more vulnerable and will get guard and MB later than currently so will level slower.
    At low TV wrestle is better
    At high TV tackle is better apart from when one of them dies and needs replacing.
    Then he will take a lot longer to get useful if he starts with tackle over wrestle.

    You could switch the S Access on knights for the A access and improve their AV but that would cost more and change the way the team plays.
    How do you dodge in full plate armour anyway. Anyone wearing full armour should have a MA of 5 max and skills like dodge , diving tackle and sidestep don't make much sense.
    So AV9 and MA5 , S instead of A and you can probably knock 10K off the price.
    However I like to think of the knights doing all the fun stuff like passing and scoring while all the plebs scrabble around in the mud hitting stuff.
    So they leave the heavy armour at home and run around ordering the rest of the team to do the dirty work.
     
  4. cjblackburn

    cjblackburn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,270
    Location:
    Stockport
    Cyanide Username:
    cjblackburn
    Country Flag:
    I like Brets where they are. Blood Bowl needs a variety of teams who are good at a range of TVs. Whilst in BB2 competitions tend to go for a high TV meta Brets are good at low and mid TV ranges. So Brets seem underpowered in BB2. However they join a number of teams who are good early but fade away. Undead, Dwarves and Amazons start well and then suffer at high TVs just like Brets. If you suggested buffing those three teams at a low TV TT tournament you wouldn’t get very far. I suggest trying different types of BB competitions to see where they fit overall.
     
  5. comfort_eagle

    comfort_eagle Active Member

    Messages:
    339
    Steam Username:
    comfort_eagle
    Country Flag:
    Grail knight. IMO, if you're gonna make the team OP, give them a fun 0/1 str4 or str5 piece. Plus the grail knight fits the fluff perfectly. Bugger if I knew what to give him for stats and skills... maybe make him like a bull centaur (high movement cos... horse), and give him the equivalent of horns (cos lance...) and loner cos he's arrogant. And no hands, cos he's really only interested in killing stuff.
     
  6. CondorDrake

    CondorDrake Member

    Messages:
    67
    Steam Username:
    lynix4
    Country Flag:
    If you think brets are too bad, go check out Cyberknight in each season of CCL (although he seems to be playing pro elf in this season for a change). I wouldn't change them at all, but I also wouldn't want to play them really. I don't like teams where half the team is not worth levelling (or it even puts you in a disadvantage to do so). And after all, in the long run at high TV, i firmly believe only teams with access to clawpomb are going to stand a chance, so if you play something long lasting like CCL for example, you got to play Chorfs, Chaos or Nurgle if you want to have a chance to win it. The occasional elf team or dwarf team who wins CCL are nuffle exceptions imo.
     
  7. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,070
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada (UTC -4)
    Steam Username:
    travelscrabble
    Cyanide Username:
    travelscrabble
    Country Flag:
    Worth pointing out that there have been more elf winners of BC 2 than bash, elf winners also very common in all the other big eternal leagues (OCC, Rebbl UKBBL etc...)
     
    Supa likes this.