1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Chaos Pact Kick and/or Leader

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Doover, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Doover

    Doover Member

    Messages:
    157
    Country Flag:
    I´m planning on playing a Chaos Pakt Team soon, while looking at the Team I got the Idea to get a Marauder with Leader as soon as possible, ´cause you realy need RR´s with Chaospakt and they are quite expensive.

    Normally my first normal skill is Kick and now I thought about sticking it to the same player (If he manages to lvl up 2 times quite fast).

    The good point would be I only have to protect one player.

    The Bad points are if I lose this player I lose 2 good Team skills. Also doesn´t he has any defence skills and the third skill will take some time with that player and skillcombination.


    So how do the rest of you do it if they planning to have a Leader and a Kick player in the same Team. Most other Teams don´t have that problem ´cause for most players Leader is a Double except for thrower and they don´t get kick to often.
     
  2. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

    Messages:
    391
    I can't help much as I would never take Leader on any team even if it was on a normal roll.

    If you absolutely must, I'd split the two skills. That way you're not gimping your kicker who actually is a valuable member of the team.
    I'd give it to a guy who you'll try not to skill up any further so that once you have bought your re-rolls you can sac him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2010
  3. Runi

    Runi Member

    Messages:
    68
    Country Flag:
    I disagree. Leader is a very useful skill that I would take on almost every team. Even as a double it's still much cheaper than a normal re-roll with the same effect. It also keeps the TV much lower. And for teams with expensive re-rolls it's probably the best way to get another early on.

    Now to the question: If it's possible I would probably split them because you don't need the kicker on the field when you're receiving. But if it really should happen that your marauder rolls double and then gets another skill before anyone else levels up, put both on the same piece. I wouldn't wait any longer to get these important skills.
     
  4. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

    Messages:
    391
    "Cheaper" is a relative term. It costs you a bit less TV true (though not too much really and when you factor in the character potentially being dead weight later into the equation it might actually cost you more TV) but it costs you a skill slot which is a very very valuable thing. Even if you can get it on a normal roll it's still taking the spot of skills like Block/Wrestle/Kick, ect... And if you have to take it on a double then it's taking the spot of Guard or Dodge. Frankly that's not even close to being "cheap" in my view. On the contrary it's very expensive. Far more expensive then a re-roll which just costs some gold.
     
  5. Runi

    Runi Member

    Messages:
    68
    Country Flag:
    Why would the player be "dead weight"? That implies you don't need him later. Why would that be? Because you buy another re-roll? Why would I buy another if I already have all the re-rolls I need, wherever they come from?

    To the question of a skill slot: Of course it takes one, like every skill. Kick also takes a skill slot and does nothing to improve the player himself, yet I think we agree that it's a very important skill, don't we?
    Yes, you have to take it instead of Block on a normal roll. But as important as Block is: There are players who don't absolutely need Block. You don't need it on every single player in your team. And having leader doesn't mean you can never get another skill.
    On doubles: Well, yes, there are usually a number of good skills you can take on doubles. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it always has to be either Dodge or Guard. Those are good skills, no doubt. But sometimes something else is more important.
    You say a re-roll just costs some gold. Quite a few teams need 140.000 to buy one after creation. That's not just "some gold". You will probably need around six or seven games to get there and buy nothing else during that time. Replace no players, don't get the reserves or the positionals you couldn't afford at the beginning...
    That's a bit more than just "some gold". In addition to that: Not every player can get the same use out of Guard or Dodge. They will still have some kind of use, but for example on a Saurus I would think twice about Dodge, as he can only use one part of the skill, considering his AG 1 (not that I'm advocating taking Leader on a Saurus, it's just an illustration).
     
  6. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

    Messages:
    391
    No, he's dead weight because he's a skilled up dude who doesn't have anything to show for it that can't be easily gotten elsewhere.

    Kick is however not replaceable. You can't get kick anywhere else. A reroll though? That is totally replaceable later on.

    It's one of the best skills in the game and if your player doesn't have Block that's only because he has Wrestle instead. Absolutely needed? Maybe not but if any skill was absolutely needed Block would be pretty close to being that skill (along with Dodge and Guard maybe).

    Sure but by the time you've got Block and Leader they have Block and X (Dodge/Guard/whatever). Of course that's assuming you get him the second skill quickly and considering he's a "valuable piece" with no protection skills and nothing to help him gain SPP faster he's either going to be a nice easy target for the enemy or he's not going to skill up quickly. I would hardly like to bet on getting two skills before my guy has even covered the basics of Block.

    Why wouldn't it be Guard or Dodge? I mean if you're getting a double you might as well get the best skills you can. So that's what Leader is taking the place of.

    One, that's why you buy rerolls at creation. Two, six or seven games? What? You only get 20k a game? Come on. That's more like three or four games and that's your most extreme example too. There are plenty of teams who get rerolls for alot less.

    Also if you don't have rerolls then why would you need to buy positionals? Isn't that where your money went originally? Just talking Chaos Pact here (since that's what this thread is about) a starter team can have all their big guys, their goblin, skaven, six marauders and still afford 3 rerolls (they are only missing their Elf). If you drop one reroll (which is the only way they can be low on rerolls anyway and the only reason Leader would be tempting at all) you can have all of your positionals. How exactly are they hurting for positionals at all here?

    Oh yes they can. That's why those are two of the best skills in the game. There are very, and I mean very, few instances where those two skills are not great. Every team can use Guard and every team can use Dodge.

    Not getting knocked down on a Defender Stumbles is excellent for a saurus (and would be more then enough reason to get dodge all by itself) and if he gets break tackle (which he should regardless of if he had dodge or not) he can use the other part of dodge as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2010
  7. Doover

    Doover Member

    Messages:
    157
    Country Flag:
    I thought about starting with 4 RR´s but Chaos Pact doesn´t has any Ballhandling or Blocking skill at the start so I would be happy to get another RR as soon as possible.

    In the long term I thought about using the Leader player as a reserveplayer. Number 12 or even Number 13.
    At the start of the game you normally have enough RR´s. So I only need him at the end of a half and I can bring him at the field after a Team scored a TD and my RR´s are running low.
    (Sure if noone scores then I don´t have the RR but normally one of the Teams get a TD. If I don´t run low on players I can still decide if I need the Leader or the other player more.)

    He increases my TV for 70k when he only has the Leaderskill. That´s the same amount as a normal RR but also serves me with a player after getting some players out. So he only blocks a skill from a reserve player.

    Also a perfect player to start fouling at the second half after using the Leader RR. (If I have a reserve player or the game is going to end soon.)
     
  8. Runi

    Runi Member

    Messages:
    68
    Country Flag:
    I think you are seeing this too dogmatic. Having a skill that is good doesn't necessarily mean it's good in 100% of all situations. If it's good in 95%, then take in in 95% of the situations, but don't be so stubborn to say, that it will always be perfect, no matter what.

    That being said, I'd like to adress your points:



    He has something that can be gotten elsewhere, but not easily and not for the same value. I think that is undisputed. For the teams with expensive re-rolls it is important to get more earlier. That doesn't include all teams, sure. But you can't just assume that you will never need it on any team.

    Yes, later on. But the teams with expensive re-rolls are those, who need them early. And I don't think that there is a team with expensive re-rolls that can get all the players they want from the beginning.
    Apart from that, both skills don't serve the player who has them at all. There is absolutely no difference. What they do is help the team and that's something that is more important than getting a few more SPP on one player.


    Yes, I think I said before that those are very good skills. All of them. Still: Not every player can put them to the same use and some players have access to skills that allow interesting and useful plays. Taking these skills is usually more important than having Block (or Wrestle) on every player. For example I don't think I would ever take Block on the first three or four skills an any elven Thrower. They should be kept out of range anyway. Yes, you can't always make sure it plays that way, but that's a risk worth taking for the only player who can get passing skills.

    But now tell me where the difference to a kicker is. How does this player get SPPs faster? How is he protected from getting blocked? Yes, what you say is true but on the global scale of the benefit for the whole team it is worth taking these drawbacks because they don't always even manifest themself in the game.

    Because the most useful for the team would be another re-roll. And even if not it is short-sighted to say these two are always the best choices. They are usually very good, but some players can use other skills better.

    Okay, the six or seven games was probably too much. Still, a lot can happen in four games and maybe you want to buy something else by the time. Yes, you buy re-rolls at creation, but especially the teams with expensive re-rolls usually need more than they can reasonably get at the beginning.
    Yes, not every team pays 70.000. But I also didn't say that Leader is ALWAYS the best choice (see a pattern here)? It is good where you need the re-rolls and have problems with the money. And where you would increase your TV a lot with team re-rolls.


    Come on now! This is below you. You know full well that there's no team in the game that gets everything they need from the beginning. I also never said "no re-rolls". But even if you have three, which is common for most starting teams, that's less than you would normally want. I at least wouldn't want to play with less than four.




    That's true but you still have three re-rolls. One more wouldn't be bad. With a team like Chaos Pact it's maybe arguable to take it, but as they don't have cheap re-rolls I would still absolutely consider taking Leader for the other stated reasons. Your point was that Leader is never useful. And that's what I disagreed on.


    Every team, but this was talking about players. And not every player can put this skill to the same use. I wouldn't want to put my Wardancer or Witch Elf in the middle of some Dwarves because they have Guard. With a Chaos Warrior that's not a problem. But surely you wouldn't want one of those players in the midlle of the action all the time?
    Just like my other example:


    Not getting knocked down is good of course. But that's only one thing that Dodge does. And wouldn't you say it's also very useful to keep that player's tackle zone on the opponent by taking Side Step?
    Yes, IF you give him Break Tackle as well he can use the other part of Dodge. But the question is how many Sauri you want to give Break Tackle (after all, that would be his third Skill, as Block is really quite good as a first one). And how long it takes to achieve that next skill. And I think you were the one who was talking about blocking a skill slot ;).



    All I want to say is: If you always do everything by the book, you will probably not go below average levels of success. But you also lose the ability to see beyond pure dogma. You can't be innovative anymore. And (not only in Blood Bowl) the people who were the most successful were not the ones who did it like everyone else ;).
    And just to make it clear again: That doesn't mean that all these "standard" skills are wrong or bad. I never said that! I just think it's short sighted to hold them in a kind of religious status and never allow yourself to even consider something else. And it is my belief that the really good Blood Bowl players take all these skills for a reason. But that they also think about the possibility of something else. As is said: In maybe 90% such standard skills are the best choice and that's why you see them so often. But it doesn't mean they are always and in every situation the way to go.
     
  9. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

    Messages:
    391
    I'm not sure where all this talk of dogma comes from...?

    Sigh... Anyway this is pointless. We're not going to get anywhere and we're just cluttering Doover's thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2010
  10. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

    Messages:
    2,381
    Country Flag:
    On a team that doesn't have much in the way of starting skills I think both Leader and Kick aren't high priority.

    I'd concentrate more on getting Block, Sure Hands, Tackle etc. You can either start the team with four rerolls, or you should be able to cope with three like most teams do.
     
  11. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,930
    Location:
    Denmark, GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    Netsmurf
    Country Flag:
    I can not remember ever taking leader. Kick however is a very usefull skill for me on almost any team I have coached. I tend to take kick every first time I get a 0-16 skill on a team, the exeption being stunty teams and lizardmen. I would never take kick on those teams as a saurus needs all kind of other skills and if I roll doubles on skinks they get either block or dirty player.
     
  12. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,568
    Cyanide Username:
    bjj hero
    Country Flag:
    I'd also like to add that team rerolls cant be killed. I love when darkelves buy it for runners. AV7 rerolls, I'll smash that all day.

    Personally I'd take sure hands and sod kick and leader.
     
  13. Doover

    Doover Member

    Messages:
    157
    Country Flag:
    So kick is out until I get some starting skills. After that I´ll take a look how the league is running.

    Actually some of the points against Leader are a reason I´m thinking to take Leader.

    I want to lower the problems of missing starting skills with the Leader RR. After the Team has some starting skills I can still kick the player when I don´t need that many RR´s anymore. Sure I´m one skill low in the long run but maybe I get some XP´s which I wouldn´t get without the RR so no loss.


    That´s true and the player will be a target. But if he is on the field I´ll use his RR as the first one each half.
    He has AV 8 and I hope he will draw away some attention from my AV 7 Stunty Goblin, my AV7 Skaven and my Elfliner. I think most people are going to hunt these three player ´cause I have just one of them each.



    Most of you tell me to not take Leader at all but strangly I´m getting more confident to try it. Will be more then a month until the League starts but I´ll give a feedback how it worked when I have played some games.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2010
  14. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

    Messages:
    391
    Of course giving him a skill like block also helps with the reroll problem and gives you exp you wouldn't get otherwise so I don't think that's a good arguement at all. And if you're even considering kicking him later then I would cross my fingers that he doesn't steal your MVPs and put you even further behind.

    If they get him KO'd or Hurt before you need a reroll that half you're out of luck and if they get him first half then you might not get him back for the second. Add to that he's more valuable then your goblin or skaven (only your elf would be potentially a bigger target) and frankly I don't think it's a good idea to use him as bait.

    But if you want to try it, more power to you. We can only give advice after all.
     
  15. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,930
    Location:
    Denmark, GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    Netsmurf
    Country Flag:
    If you give your player leader just to sack him later, I think you are hurting your team and stealing 6 SPP from it.

    In average you will earn 35k if you are losing your matches and do not have fame. That means you can get the extra reroll after 4 matches. If you want to give leader to a player they have to work hard to get the skill up in match one, and if you are able to give 6SPP to a player in your opening match - then you obviously play well enough to not need leader or you are just lucky and got the MVP on a player able to use it.

    Normaly I do not count on a quarantied skill up after match one, but only after the second match and by then you only need two more matches (on average if you lose) to get that reroll.

    Of course all this only apply in the safe heaven where your players are not killed in svarms and money suddenly is needed for something else.
     
  16. Khail

    Khail New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Country Flag:
    My Chaos Pact at 9 games in:

    Minotaur - Block
    Troll - Guard, Stand Firm
    Ogre - Guard
    Dark Elf - Block, Dodge
    Skaven - +AG, Block
    Goblin - (no skills, sitting at 5 SPP)
    One Marauder - +AG
    Two Marauders - Dodge
    Three Marauders - Block
    One Marauder - Block + Claw

    4 Rerolls
    2 CL
    2 AC
    7 FF

    I started with 3 RR.

    The only skill I really miss is Kick currently. I would have Sure Hands if I hadn't been lucky enough to roll the two +AGs. I don't regret not taking Leader at all. Once I get Sure Hands and some more block on the Marauders that are missing it, I'll probably drop back down to 3 RR. I'm also probably going to start firing/replacing big guys that don't get block in their first two skill if I've got the extra cash (need a few non-big guy Guards first).