Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Jbecks, Mar 27, 2014.
Mordheim just opened for early access for 31.99€ on steam.
Cheers Mikko! Think I'll get it later today!
Obligatory post made exclusively for bragging because I, like I suspect most everyone, just got into the Early Access. Currently installing my copy right now.
For the ones who missed it... there was a dev stream on Twitch of the game earlier today, they played the game and answered some questions.
Mordheim twitch stream
Sooooo after one nights play these are my thoughts:
For a pre alpha i'm very happy with where the game is at. Gameplay is pretty intuitive, Music and scenery is atmospheric if a bit repetitive. Loading times are long - although my desktop is three years old its a decent spec and can handle anything new thrown at it but 5-8 mins to load is excessive. Strategic map needs some work - its great for identifying which team is where but really falls down on which unit you're looking at or what level of a building something is on. Not sure if it was just me but the one full skirmish I played I had to quit as the AI spawned four rats in a building with no apparent access.
No player development yet. Cant wait for that to go in.
Right, I've also got thoughts on where things are right now, and have played all four tutorials and have made use of both Skaven and Mercenaries for against CPU Skirmishes.
On the whole, it's in a nice place right now, though I'm personally unconvinced that the Sisters were a good 4th choice. Why a typical Witch Hunter's Band, something iconic to Mordheim IMO, wasn't the 4th faction I'll never know.
The system is a bit too unbalanced in favour of reaction fighting - the AI are very Parry/ Dodge happy, which means to counter that you ought to throw your own Parry/ Dodge up each turn. If you have control of a character with 4 attack points, then you ought to throw an attack (because the AI rarely counter) and then throw up Parry/ Dodge, offering the option to counter-attack.
Equally, it's easier to cause damage using range or ambushes as opposed to straight up combat. Which admittedly makes sense - an enemy unprepared is far easier to hit - but it seems far too skewed towards range right now, since the brace of pistols made short work of any Mercenary, and the Mercenary band has a hell of a lot of range to work with: a few crossbows; a Wizard; a couple of Pistol Braces; a Shortbow; and a Rifle. And that's just what I saw - I didn't swap weapons with everyone, I don't think.
Ultimately, I think the two factions chosen for demo-combat was a bit of a mis-match - the Mercanaries have no reason to not simply just set up shop in a circle and overwatch the entire area. Meanwhile, the Skaven are simply too dedicated to melee/ ambush tactics, which means if you are exploring with sole members you can easily be cornered and its difficult to regroup without mobbing enemies one at a time. I at one point had five skaven mobbing the Human Captain, simply to remove his pistols.
Can anyone tell me if Ambush works from above? I know Overwatch works from any angle provided you have a chance to hit them, but I didn't manage to test out Ambush's capabilities beyond catching fleeing enemies/ attacking from behind corners.
Still, it's an alpha, and some of the issues might be changed as we get closer to launch. They also might not be so big a deal if two factions of roughly equal value fight, as opposed to the human player getting double points on the CPU.
EDIT: See post #52 for further details.
How are you finding the initiative system?
I actually quite like it - since it's still a turn-based system but the individual units are going in a specific order based on their initiatives, you aren't punished for killing off individual warriors or heroes in one swoop, as opposed to a number of individual-based systems where killing opposing units actively increases the rounds available to enemy units.
I feel it makes for much better lore-to-game correlation - a man in heavy plate and carrying a halberd, no matter how well trained he is, will never be as fast to move and react as a man in cloth, armed with a longbow and daggers, who is quintessentially a scout, for example.
It also puts a lot more pressure on both sides - do you try to kill that unit who still has a turn and is quite beefy; do you try to pick off injured parties who have already moved; do you decide to spread damage; or do you retreat to fight another day, in the knowledge that they can easily pursue? For example, as powerful (and semi-broken) as the Ogre is, do you focus your assault on him and forgo killing those Marksmen, or do you try to slay the long-ranged fiends before they start shooting your rats from afar with little way to counter them?
The AI are pretty good at focus-attacking though - I've had a few men pulled down and slain by sheer numbers and tenacity. So they go for Option #2: Focus on Injured Parties, then Option #3: Spread Damage. They are okay at retreating, but you can "cheat" by setting an ambush right outside of active combats, if they disengage, wasting two movement (about half on most units), and then move anywhere near the ambushing unit, using a third movement point, they are quickly tagged and cannot escape the new combat situation. It's not technically against the rules, but it does stop the majority of injured parties from escaping the slaughter quite quickly.
EDIT: I'm aware of each factions preferances, but the Skaven in-game didn't feel as tactically able as the Reiklanders. I managed to get some potshots off with my Reiklanders before commiting to CQC a number of times, or just simply hung back, firing line ready and waiting with melee ambushes in place for interceptions. Meanwhile, the Skaven are able to get around easier on account of being more agile climbers, but because of how the AI plays you can't set up ambushes in the houses 24/7 and hope to Nuffle/ Sigmar/ Morr that it'll work. The Reikland Mercs, when AI-controlled, liked to stick to the open of the streets, where the Skaven can't skulk properly. Which makes sense, but it just felt that the lack of range coupled with that skulking inhibitor makes the ratlings less fulfilling...
Yes, I do love shooting, passing and in general un-sportsmanlike methods to win my games, what's your point?
I imagine the initiative based movement would also make multiplayer more interesting as you don't have to wait for your opponent to move his entire warband before interacting with the game again.
Don't Skaven get slings?
The base starting warbands are static, so you can not tamper with their equipent. And from what I could see in the stream (which I posted in my earlier message) the Skaven had little, if any ranged equipment. One of them had a brace of pistols... and I guess that the Skavens mage might have some ranged capability. But the remaining seemed to have none.
On the other side the Mercenaries seemed more ranged heavy. One guy with a rifle, one with a bow, a brace of pistols on the leader (I asume), their mage.
I am also certain I saw someone with a crossbow... but maybe that was the Skavens who had that... do not remember really.
That Mercenarie Ogre wreaked havoc in the second half of the game as well. It seemed to take out atleast half the opponents team from what I saw. Maybe that was due to poor tactics from the Skaven player, but still. At one point at the end I saw the Ogre cause a critical hit which did over 120 points of damage (where it's normal damage was in the 30 range).
As for a question someone asked here about ambush. In the stream I did see it used somewhat effectivly in around the start of the game. Where two of the Mercenaries (rifle and bow guy) got caught by an ambusher each, as they where running around... probably being a bit scout'ish.
Skaven Slings/ Basic Equipment Selection: Not present in the alpha - the two factions have set equipment choices and set hirelings, so no tweaking is allowed. A number of the Skaven are armed with single hand-weapons and that's it, while some of them are armed with two different melee sets.
Ogre Bodyguard: The Ogre gets a special skill which costs him 2 of his 6 attack points each turn. It effectively jumps his average damage with his warhammer from 20-35 points to a whopping 70 - 90 points of damage. So I sacrifice a single attack to just flatten enemies. Really strong, and why I argue that it's quasi-broken in the alpha - there is no reason to not use it unless you want to charge attack and then make a second attack, which would cost 5 attack points.
Ambush Question: I was wondering if it would work from a higher position and attack down. Basically, if a Skaven sees a Merc Marksman running along the street, could said Skaven jump down and intercept them with Ambush, as opposed to having to chase them on their (the Skaven's) next initiative phase? That would be a good tactical decision and would directly influence how the game would play - meaning that you would need to put in a lot more caution and thought to your moves.
EDIT: Just tested the Ambush set-up I suggested. Seems, at this stage anyway, that Ambush only works if both individuals are on the same level. It also doesn't trigger simultaneous ambushes - they go off individually, which really sucks. It means that while you can go ambush-happy, you need to manually mob that ambushed soldier as opposed to watching the five "Ambush" status rats you'd grouped go in mob-style.
I really want to get going with this game but my current pc will run it but only at the lowest settings and I seriously would be concerned about multiplayer causing huge lag and being glitch heavy with lots of stuttering. I am instead waiting until Christmas before investing and running it on my new machine instead. Gladly its still very early in its development and the fact the experience, roster choices and equipment are not in yet means I'm not missing too much yet.
I do wonder however is there a published version of the rules systems this adaptation utilises as this is key to understanding your choices/options in game and will demonstrate if the options are in fact real or just false choice.
I don't believe there is a published set of rules as if yet. We still don't really know exactly what stats are what in the stats page as they aren't labelled (some are obvious and others are not) not to mention how they are used as you can't see the dice results only success/fail or hit miss etc. time will tell I guess.
Starting warband info:
I stand corrected!
Thanks Phoenix.. I will no doubt have it memorised in short order.
While useful it does not explain how the various systems interact so is of limited use outside of compared rosters. There are several key aspects I'm specifically interested in knowing the mechanics behind, such as damage, close combat and skills and traits etc. As without knowing these its impossible to judge if they have done enough to offset the tabletop games balance issues and also if they are going to have balance issues with this version.
I plainly do not like the roster limitations in terms of what can be fielded and I feel this is likely going to have major issues long term for some gang types or worse and more likely the gangs will lack flavour because outside of thematic differences the core choices are all the same regardless of faction.
Regarding Sisters over witch hunters I actually disagree completely as the Sisters of Sigmar are unique to the game in the table top version, so they are more Mordheim in essence than any other choice. They are also a really interesting roster in the table top while Witch Hunters were one of the poorer options, being low powered and dull.
I am very excited by this games prospects though I am in a way glad I am not comfortable playing with how my machine could run this right now as it gives more time to find out more on the above subjects.
That would make it very true to the original though, right? Not that it would be a good thing...
[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7vhiW8Oi2o]Mordheim Early Access Phase Two - Youtube[/ame]
For a more in-depth idea, here's the link to the Mordheim page on Steam: Steam Community :: Group Announcements :: Mordheim: City of the Damned
Its looking good
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