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Tactics My NAF experiences

Discussion in 'NAF Resurrection Tournament Tactics' started by Supa, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    In few weeks I'll be finally going to my first NAF tournament here in Finland. Rules are world cup rules (same as in Dornbirn). Four games: One day1, two day2 and one day3.

    First I considered necro and humans, but I think I'm about to puke due to many practice games in FUMBBL against them. Lizardmen could be strong since they really come online on day2, but unfortunately I do not own figurines for them.

    Then I started to consider my other options and realized that damn. Is Underworld the good stuff?! List I ended up with, thanks to two mateys:

    Troll 110k
    2x Blitzer 180k
    2x Thrower 140k
    2x Linemen 100k
    4x Goblin 160k
    Glart Smashrip 190k (MA5, ST4, AG2, AV8, Loner, Block, Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, Claw)
    Skitter Stab-Stab 160k (MA9, ST2, AG4, AV7, Loner, Dodge, Prehensile Tail, Shadowing, Stab)
    1RR 70K
    =1110k

    Day1 skills (140k budget remaining):
    Block Troll 30k
    Mighty blow+Piling on Blitzer 50k
    Guard Blitzer 20k
    Leader Thrower 20k
    Wrestle Lineman 20k

    Day2 skills (+40k budget):
    Block Thrower 20k
    Wrestle Lineman 20k

    Day3 skills (+40k budget):
    Two heads Goblin x2 40k

    I think it's really strong at day2. Not that bad at day1, however on day3 the powerspike is really bad compared to many other races. 2+ dodges still appreciated if they somehow stay on the pitch.

    Having to field only 2 gobbos on first drive is huge. In a way they start to feel special due to dodge+stunty. Safe skills on the whole team, but this team packs some good punching power and muscle thanks to troll, pomber, guard and Glart. Skitter is a gutter runner which is appreciated, even if he's a loner. However tail+shadow could create some plays that allow me lock-up opponents on offense.

    If my hitting fails then my offense will be really difficult and I need to play with my very best capability to stall 8 turns. Slippery BS might be needed. :p On defense however I might be surprisingly strong as the team can break cages, yet is mobile enough to re-position.

    I wish I'd get 3RR but with 3 loners and overall quite safe skills, I should be having trouble spend more than 2RR per half... Hopefully. :p No apo, but tbh I probably don't need it, so I value bench more.

    I'll be facing players who play in the finnish national team. So I might be biting on more than what I can chew on especially with this roster. :p Still it should be a fun run and quite different BB experience.

    Interested to see if I missed something relevant, or how others have fared with Underworld in tournaments. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  2. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    I can't comment on the power of Underworld in relation to other teams in this format, nor too much on resurrection in general. But since I have quite a bit of experience with Underworld, I'll add my two cents, for you to make use of as you wish :)

    I'm not sure Skitter Stab-Stab is worth it. A Thrower is a better ball carrier, because you don't want to use a RR on Skitter. Blitzing with Skitter for stab attempt is decent against AV7 Blodgers, but you might only get 1 or 2 of those for the whole game before Skitter is removed (same goes for marking people with him - probably only good against a turn 8 score, otherwise opponents will happily hit Skitter over and over).

    An alternative to Skitter would be 2 Gobbos + 1 RR for me (150k instead of 160k). Underworld likes having a bench, and this gives you a bit more, plus that much needed 2nd (3rd) RR. Yes, you have quite a few built-in rerolls - but your rats still don't have Dodge, and you might need to throw 1d blocks, and you might get double skulls, and you might need to hand off and catch on a 3+ or even 4+ to score - I don't think I'd feel comfortable without that 2nd (3rd) RR.

    So what to do with the extra 10k on day 1? I'd suggest the following:

    Day1 skills (150k budget remaining):
    Block Troll 30k
    Mighty blow Blitzer 20k
    Guard Blitzer 20k
    Leader Thrower 20k
    Block Thrower 20k
    Wrestle Lineman 20k
    Wrestle Lineman 20k

    Day2 skills (+50k budget):
    Mighty Blow Blitzer gets Piling On 30k
    Two Heads Goblin 20k

    Day3 skills (+40k budget):
    Two Heads Goblin x2 40k
     
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  3. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    Thanks a lot. One mistake as Underworld gets only 40k more budget on day2. :)

    I considered this too and that is probably the 2nd best build I came up with and doesn't fall off too far behind. Yes, it is a lot of gold spent on a squishy player (no block, ST2, AV7). But dropping him means I'd have to field one more goblin. That alone just feels like the wrong choice when my concept is to field as few goblins as possible, even if it means less skills on day1 (I plan to be strong at day2), one less reroll (which might've been useless anyways) and less bench (but on the other hand one less stunty).

    I cannot fit any Frenzy or Tackle in the team so that Stab is appreciated if I really have to attempt to down a blodger. Also even if he's a loner his oneturning is better than TTM - assuming he can stay on the field of course, not to forget the usual GR mobility and BS. Almost every team would like to have a gutter runner and Skitter comes up with some other shenanigans to fill that role in the team.

    I will test both of these builds next week. If I am forced to roll too many 4+ I am doing something wrong probably. :D
     
  4. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    You said that the format follows the NAF world cup rules, and on their site I found that Underworld is tier 3 of 4, and that tier 3 gets 50k on day 2. Is that not correct?

    Goblins with Two Heads are quite powerful, though. I have on occasion opted to field an additional Goblin over a Lineman, simply because the Goblin (with Two Heads) is so much more mobile.

    I do agree that Skitter is nice to have against Blodgers, that's for sure. And you bring up one point that I had not considered yet, namely the one-turner. Given that, I'd probably change my opinion to the point that both builds now seem equally good to me.

    Let me know how your tests work out, I'm quite interested :)
     
  5. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    Damn you're correct. I cannot read. It indeed is 50k on day2. :D

    This makes me lean more towards your build now, but I also think that this is a rare case where I wouldn't really miss that 10k. I could spend it on fan factor instead and pick wrestle or block on day1, swapping it for Piling on or troll's Block. Then take skillstack or double on day2. That would severely nerf my day1 and 1FF is still a bit too unreliable to make a great difference.

    I will test both builds anyways, possibly more if somebody comes up with anything. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  6. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    I practiced with a Legend FUMBBL coach with day2 rosters. He took necromantic team, which included:
    -2 Flesh Golems
    -2 Block Werewolves
    -2 Wights, one with Guard, one with Mighty blow+Piling on
    -2 Ghouls, one with Sure hands, one with Wrestle
    -4 Zombies
    -2 Rerolls
    -2 Fan Factor

    We ended first game mid-way on 1st half already as I started on offense and got a good chunk of removals. Unless some ridiculous dice would've happened, the game would've been an easy 2-0 for me, so we both decided to play one more game.

    This time he started on the offense and immediately killed a linerat. Still, I was able to keep up in the game and eventually got the upper hand. Glart counters Golems big time. I put so much pressure on him that he was forced to score on turn 6, something I was really proud of. I had 3 turns left to score, but didn't get to blitz my way through. I had at least dozen dice on his zombos on the LoS and only rolled pushes, despite me having block. Still, I managed to push through one flank thanks to guard and wrestle. After pushing 3 players with 2d blocks on turn 8, it was a goblin dodge away, short pass from a thrower, animosity and a catch. Everything succeeded except the catch, which failed with a reroll too. Sad times.

    2nd half was somewhat brutal. I started to get removals again, but boy oh boy did losing that wrestle lineman 1st half make a difference now! I had to expose a gobbo to a pomber if I didn't want to sacrifice some position and I started to get outmuscled too. I was forced to hand-off to Skitter, but he made the carrying much more safe, as my opponent wouldn't come to crash my cage anymore, since gutter runner was carrying the ball. I certainly could've played better, but some fault goes to rolling 2 doubleskulls in 3 turns which ate all my rerolls (did somebody mention buying a 3rd reroll?) and a quite crucial really stupid roll. Troll being an idiot led to a chainpush that pushed the troll away. Now that troll wasn't protecting Glart anymore, players moved next to him and was 2d blocked into a casualty.

    This swinged the momentum heavily as his golems were back in business and he started to base me heavily. With no rerolls I was forced to do really sub-par moves, with one reroll I could've attempted a 1d block which would've cleared the path next to his endzone and possibly stall there for the rest of the game. So I ran back with my gutter runner, waiting for a better opportunity. Again a 1d block moment rose to make some room, but surprise surprise, skull. Skitter was sacked on turn 6 and there was no hope for me to score anymore. Game ended as a 0-1 loss for me.

    So what were the thoughts of this experiment? As crazy as it sounds, the Underworld team is much better than the all-so-glorious necro in this format... ON DAY 2! On day 3 those golems can be buffed with block or guard, which looks much better than two headed gobbos.

    Coin toss is huge with this team, the hitting power is insane thanks to a pomber, Glart and a troll with block. On the other hand the team less surprisingly cannot really withstand beating that much. Still opponent has to be really careful with their positioning as this Underworld team packs some strength and will punish bad marking (and with good dice even good marking).

    First game would've indeed been a cakewalk. 2nd game was really close, I think I should've won that but got a little unlucky on my 3turner (not getting the LoS down to blitz a gap through the middle), 2nd half as I said I could've played it better, but 2 dubskulls was also harsh. This is why I love 3RR but honestly, with this team that's the only thing that is going to eat rerolls from me, so 2RR should be manageable most of the time. Also much respect to my opponent as he played it really well.

    Skitter is bae, while I never got to use the tail or shadow my opponent had to consider them almost each turn. Overall MA9 with AG4 and built in dodge gives me so many opportunities, which makes it hard to disband him from the team. There's also a huge difference if you field 2 or 3 goblins. 2 is neat, 3 is not. So @Borke, your build unfortunately might not be quite my style after all. :D

    Overall it is pretty much what I expected it to be, a really strong day2 team that will have its moments on day1 and starts to fall behind others on day3 due to sub-par skill choices (while I acknowledge that two-heads has its moments, I just prefer ratmen over goblins in many ways). Plenty of hitting power to cause a snowball, but also there is a risk to get snowballed on defensive half as well. It was still astonishing to be able to beat Necromantic team like a wet tissue... only that the end result should've been different. :oops: Glart is the conductor of this team. As soon as he got removed it was pretty much gg for me.

    I will practice more, hopefully against something else than necro. I'm getting sick of necro (and human) teams! ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  7. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    Good to hear your experience, @Supa ! My style of playing Underworld (in eternal leagues) is certainly less bashy, with more focus on mobility, which is where the Gobbos really shine. But Underworld definitely does support multiple play styles.

    Good luck with your tournament! :)
     
  8. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    This build is somewhat comparable to dark elves. Good mix of fighting power and as a plan B they can use their mobility.

    Just had 2 games against humans. I conceded mid-way 1st half as my players got cassed heavily and they got me in a nice guardlock. Second game was a 1-1 draw. I almost pitch cleared them (only ogre and catcher remained), but sadly all removals were KOs so they had 10 for 2nd half. It was a rough, risky scramble for them but in the end they scored on t8 too. My oneturner failed.

    I still need more practice as my positioning is still a little off (granted I suck a lot on FUMBBL).
     
  9. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    Tournament is over, was a great experience. I had lots of fun there. :)

    I ended up with my default roster choice on my 1st post. Less goblins=better it is, for me at least. :D

    There were some newer coaches, but I ended up facing those who've played for the finnish national team. They're veterans of the tabletop scene, sure, but I must say I've still had a harder time against some others like here on BBT. Although dice of course played a role. :D

    That said, my Day1 game started with a loss against chaos. 1st half was great, I started on defense but still managed to gain an upper hand, injuring their skillstacked mino. I forced the score on turn 5 and scored afterwards. However, 2nd half removals didn't come. Eventually Glart doubleskulled on turn 4, KOd himself, which left Skitter exposed. He is blitzed and fouled away. My pomber also got KOd that turn. Then it turned into a struggle as all my dicerolls led into a turnover for the rest of the game. They eventually scored on turn 8 with a noreroll 3+ pickup. It happens.

    2nd game was against humans with Karla. I once again had to start on defence, but my LoS was saved by a great pitch invasion, stunning 4/11 players out from him. Humies never really managed to totally recover from that, although it could've ended horribly for me. Still I finally score on turn 8.

    Before that I pombed their only thrower with leader out, so he had to play 2nd half with 1RR. My offense is alright but I lose a reroll quickly. He commits 100% to my cage around turn 3. Due to the circumstances I'm not carrying with Skitter, so I hand-off to my free pomber which eats my last reroll. I screen near his endzone in a flank, but he manages to make the dodges and GFIs without rerolls, so I'm in a bad spot. Nuffle is merciful and I score with 3+, 2+, 2+. He has 4 turns and attempts a quick score, but cannot pick up the ball. Lineman is blitzed and Skitter runs it in on turn 8. 3-0 victory, although it wasn't an easy one!

    Then I played against quite a personal fellow (Beer Beer)and his norse team. :D I believe I caused 4 removals in on my first turn, although he liked to use a bombardier a lot. :D 3-0 victory for me.

    Finally, a game against Undead. They let me play on the offense first and I kept the pressure up. In fact so much that I allowed him to have shots at my ballcarrier for the first 2 turns, although they still required dodges and GFIs. Still, bounces were going to be favorable for me and I got to focus on hitting things. However at one point Skitter fails the pick up, so it turns into a scramble. After some time he finally picks it up and runs it near his endzone. Still a ghoul manages to sack, but my players are faster and allow me to perform a perfect stall.

    2nd half he commits his players to scoring position, being heavily outnumbered. However he fails the pickup, so I apply pressure. He fails again and I pick up the ball, scoring on turn 5. Not much else to say. He said my TTM will be harder 2nd half if I attack first, which is a valid point. Still I outbashed him heavily that game, could've been a loss if he'd performed a nice rumble with his players.

    3-0-1 record was enough to place me 3rd out of 14. Lizardmen beat me with tiebreakers and a pro elf team won it all with a perfect 4 win record. Leap+strip ball blitzer apparently surprised many. :p.

    All in all, a tournament that was a great first experience for me. Experiment Underworld was also succesful, as I feel like I had a great shot to win it all with this "silly" race. This rulepack makes Underworld quite close to other races power though. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  10. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations, that's a great result for Underworld I feel. Happy to hear your roster worked nicely.
     
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  11. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    Tournament bug has bitten me. Since I do not want to flood this over multiple threads, I've changed the title of this thread (from "My first NAF experience"). :D

    Some world cup practice on 22nd of September. I'm not attending Dornbirn, but I'm happy to practice against them. Some same faces who I saw last time, including the coach who won the last tournament I attended. It's smaller (so far only 6 coach applied) and if I'm not mistaken there could be one or two newer coaches too. Tournament lasts only one day. 3 games for each world cup ruleset day.

    I love the tier list, it's very close to polished and all races feel quite equal in my opinion... possibly not stunties though, although I'm tempted to attempt flings at some point! :D My two stand-out favourites are Necromantic and Human teams, assuming that equal amount of games are played for each day. To me they feel slightly stronger than others, but they would definitely be far too weak in tier 1.

    This time I am going to bring Necromantic team, with the following roster:

    1200 starting cash (of which 1100 must be used for buying the team). Day2 I get +50k for skills and Day3 I get +40k for skills.

    2 Werewolves 240k
    2 Flesh Golems 220k
    2 Wights 180k
    2 Ghouls 140k
    4 Zombies 160k
    2RR 140k
    2FF 20k
    =1100

    For day 1 I select block for both of my wolves, mighty blow for one wight, sure hands for one ghoul and wrestle for the other ghoul. For day2 I upgrade my mighty blower with a piling on and give my remaining wight guard. Day 3 I upgrade both of my golems with guard.

    2RR is risky, there was an option to drop one of the positionals, but zombies are just meh. It's not that big of an issue though with sure hands ghoul, which also protects from strip ball. Forces me to take block for both of the wolves, not bad although there is an option to take one double, so I am passing on mb werewolf. I'm perfectly fine just using a mighty blow(PO) wight for blitzing for damage and block is appreciated on frenzy hits. Golems will be road blocks and I might skip some 2d blocks on them. With 2 frenzy and 1 wrestle, I don't think I miss tackle on this roster at all.

    Overall a balanced roster with plenty of tools to earn some wins. I do know that offense is somewhat difficult with this roster, as only few players are mobile. But they are absolute top team for defensive play in this format, their ziggurat is almost impenetrable, golems can crash cages, frenzy is bae and so on.

    Still always happy to talk about tournaments, builds and what not over here or Discord. :)
     
  12. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    You already mentioned that this team is weaker on offense, and I fully agree. You don't represent enough damage potential to dissuade opponents from using the "just base everything" approach against you at least twice per match, maybe even more often. And if your entire team is based, and you're maybe out of rerolls (because you only have two to begin with), and the only players who can get 2d blocks don't have Block, things could turn ugly quick (like "roll a 3+ or lose" ugly).

    I don't have any great solutions, either. And I love Necro as a team, can't fault you for wanting to take them. But they're tier 2 for a reason, and I'm not sure whether a rule set that forces them to choose between full positionals or 3 rerolls can really be said to be Necro friendly.

    Thinking some more about the conundrum, I'm going to throw a couple of suggestions out there, just as food for thought: 1) What about Dodge on one Werewolf instead of Block, to increase the number of built-in rerolls? 2) What about Leader on a Zombie instead of PO on the Wight?
     
  13. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I would want guard earlier.
    What about guard wight instead of wrestle ghoul on day 1.
    You do have 2 block frenzy so wrestle is less important.

    Guard on the ghoul is then an option for day 2.
     
  14. Supa

    Supa Active Member

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    Indeed I have to spare my rerolls, basically only using them on doubleskulls. Tournament games tend to end in massive scrambles for the ball and stalling for 8 turns is quite difficult. Marking is a valid strategy if executed properly as you do not have to worry of player longevity on rez. They are in tier 2 for a good reason, but their good mix of positionals and skills with that t2 budget just makes them feel really comfortable for me. Every team has pros and cons on this format, I'd actually argue that this necromantic can dish out damage quite well (not as well as my Underworld though!). Still marking is effective, so I can expect to be in a situation when I have to make a 3+ dodge with ghoul, possibly some GFI to score. Hopefully my coaching and dice are on point to avoid those horror scenarios!

    Dodge werewolf isn't quite my style, I like to hit more than dodge away. Especially since I do not have AG4 and frenzy+claw really dictate me to pick block, even if the wolf could cause some plays with MA8 and frenzy.

    Leader zombie is something I considered a lot. However if I play it safe I should be just fine with 2, and statistically pomber should really help me with removals, which should lead to easier games and more victories. Also with only 4 zombies (one on the bench) I expect they might be stuck in some harsh places if necessary. So with this team I do not want to have a player to protect, as leader would make zombie worth of a positional pretty much. Also, my positionals probably shouldn't pick leader. :D

    Yes, that's something I tested too, but to me wrestle ghoul was just one more player that can block more safely, gives some protection to him (could be used to mark a big blockless target if necessary) and overall is the best sacker for me in a situation when opponent potatoes and bases everything from my team. That said I still might fall back for guard wight as I might fall in strength against some teams on day 1. However as I mentioned other teams do have their own foes as well, so they won't be stacked on guard too much either. I'll hopefully test the team before the tournament, especially day 1 games.

    Guard ghoul is something I do not personally like too much and pomber has been great for me, as well as against me during tests. Sometimes it has hiccups starting up, but he should deliver. :D
     
  15. sbr32

    sbr32 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if any of you are paying attention to the World Cup stuff but rosters have been finalized and information about teams is starting to come out.

    Wood Elves are #1 with 131 teams in total. Necro is #2 with 130. I don't remember #3 (Chaos maybe) and it's a pretty significant drop to them but I can't find that list atm.
     
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