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New 2 month player here...Help me understand why Agility teams are 'skill' teams and others aren't..

Discussion in 'Blood Bowl 2' started by Clarissa__k, May 7, 2021.

  1. Clarissa__k

    Clarissa__k New Member

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    I don't mean this post negatively. Please don't take it as such. I do like this game. However, there is something I don't understand...

    I was told by streamers and articles and such that 'Agility teams' like elf teams are 'Skill' coaching teams and that other, non stunty non jokey (like Khemri or Kislev which are hard to coach) are 'less skilled' coaching.

    However, after 2 months of playing, I do not understand this. When I play one of these 'less skill' coaching teams against elves or other agility...I have to think hard. Position every character well, think moves ahead....etc etc. Agility teams just seem to...well...click. When I play as an elf coach, it just seems easier. The vaunted skill of 'elf screen' really isn't that hard to do compared to defending against elves. If I want to go somewhere on the map...well I don't worry about much...I just...well...click. When I play against agility teams, they don't seem to have to sweat the details all that much. Sure, they have to be careful etc etc etc but not like I have to do to defend against them and move down the pitch. And if I do well and move down the pitch defending the ball well...then, in desperation, the Agility team coach just has to ...well...click. Sure it may not work, but it works surprisingly often.

    Help me understand why agility teams are considered more 'skillful' than others. After playing for 2 months I am not sure anymore. Playing against them and playing with them they sure seem less stress and less deep thought to coach.

    I will grant that agility teams have to have more...mental fortitude...as they have to contend with injuries more but overall. If you can get past that why are agility coaches so arrogant insisting that their work is harder? I don't see it. Help me understand. I am starting to put Agility coaches saying that in the same category as Dwarf coaches saying that dwarfs are hard to play well. hahaha. :)

    Again, not snark. Help me understand.
     
  2. Street

    Street Well-Known Member

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    What that streamer really means is when someone plays a bash team (Like Orcs or dwarfs) less skilled coaches can just spam mightyblow and get lots of removals to the point where positioning isn't as important.

    However as they won't get the high number of removals to make that difference often the less skilled coaches doing this still won't win as often as one who is focused on positioning and playing better.

    There is not less skill to playing any race extremely well, but bash teams do have a lower skill floor than agility teams since removal focused gameplay will just work even for terrible coaches sometimes thanks to dice, where as the common joke about agility teams are just "Click ball click endzone" is going to win a bad coach games less often than the bash easy mode method.

    So the streamers you listened to are not right in what they are saying, but hopefully above gives the logic behind why they think that way.
     
    TravelScrabble likes this.
  3. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    Been pondering how to explain this for a while. I think a good example is to think about why most coaches recommend Orcs as one of the most forgiving teams when learning to play Blood bowl.

    • High armour values mean that you're less likely to have to play with a numbers disadvantage.
    • High strength players to make blocking easier without positioning being as important.
    • Agile enough to move the ball successfully and not punish positioning mistakes too badly.
    • Fast enough to move the ball successfully and not punish positioning mistakes too badly.
    • Enough basic starting skills to get the job done (block blitzers, sure hands throwers).
    In terms of comparison between the more extreme 'bash' teams' that are considered simpler by many coaches. Those 'bash' teams such as Chaos and Chaos Dwarf teams meet most of these factors whilst being blessed with the tools and progression options to really shine at removing opposing players from the pitch. Therefore if they are patient and the dice don't punish them, they should be able to gain an advantage enough to allow them to both score and defend well.

    Conversely the 'agile' teams are not as forgiving. They lack strength and armour and have little access to the skills that help them remove opposing players from the pitch. They will often be outnumbered and rely on more complex tactics to achieve success. There is a lot more to them than elf screening, which needs player numbers to work - the minute casualties start it becomes hard to screen.

    As such I do tend to agree that these teams are harder to play in general than those bash teams.

    Where I do agree with the original sentiment however is the large number of 'hybrid' teams in the middle ground. Teams that have limited agility access and limited strength. Many of them rely on excellent coaching to overcome their weaknesses and leverage their strengths. As such I tend towards the view that the hybrid teams in the middle are actually the hardest to master.

    Historically the win rates across teams indicates this to be broadly true.
     
    Ravers likes this.
  4. BallztotheWalla

    BallztotheWalla Active Member

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    I’ll be snark for you then, the streamer is wrong and my guess would be he/she is bad at the game since it’s a flat out stupid thing to say.

    Every type of team have a team that is very good and fairly forgiving to play at all team values imo.
     
  5. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    I am not a top player nor as skilled as Ballz ... but let me say this: I play mainly elves and I have many times been slaughtered by those pesky pombers/clapombers around, often to the point where I had to scrap the team or switch to "survival mode" and play every game just with survival and developement in mind and not trying to really win.
    Right now I play an elf team in OCC tier 5, and my team has just 5 players left ... (luckily very good players ...).
    When i wanted to change pace for once I played orks in OCC and I managed to get to tier2 with a healthy team, 1.400.000 k in the bank (it was bck in BB1) and lots of good players.
    Just my 2 cents.
     
  6. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Active Member

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    As a pro elf player, my team takes skill. If anyone plays bash against me I'm superior to them and they only won because the game is unfair. :cool:
     
  7. Silfuin

    Silfuin Well-Known Member

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    If Undead are considered Hybrid team this is not true.
    They have outstanding winrates and many players have their highest winrate with undead.
     
  8. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    I would consider Undead as Bash tbh. And yes as a starting team they are definitely one of the better ones (if not the best, probably them and Woodies at low TV). 2 Str 5 Mummies, 2 block wights, and a couple of dodge ghouls, and they are tough to deal with. They lose a lot of their potency as the TV goes up.

    As to the original post, elves are great but they are expensive and fragile. In a long running league, or CCL format, they tend to shine brightly then burn out, whereas you will see many Chaos/Nurgle/Chorf etc teams just keep on trucking season after season. A really good example of this would be the rebbl playoff match yesterday evening https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1036145800 (crazy DE just got murdered by average Nurgle). Grats @VulpesInculta :pow:
     
  9. VulpesInculta

    VulpesInculta Active Member

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    thank you @Ravers . Just high roll is what i say. Although you're completely correct in what you're saying. perhaps bb3 will see some elf teams play for longer.
     
  10. notorious noob

    notorious noob Well-Known Member

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    Bit late to the party but to me the biggest difference is that a agility team allows a skilled player to leverage their skills as a player far more than a bash (more the kill teams here) team. (hybrid is a bit complicated but far closer to agility than bash here.) Bash teams absolutely require skill however they end up forced into certain patterns making them easier to play with experience. Cpomb and guard the biggest culprits here are extremely powerfull tools but they force your hand as far as playingstyle is concerned because well you have to kill their players and you have to use your guard in contact. A great coach is going to do so much better than a decent coach here but they kind of hit a ceiling at some point. You simply dont have the tools to force or create beyond a certain point.

    Agility teams however hand you a lot more tools to achieve your goals. If you are a much better coach it is pretty easy to overcome shitty dice with woodies. But in a chaos mirror you are simpy screwed, he got the removals and you didnt. So no it doesnt require more skill to pilot a agility team compared to a bash team at a average level just different skills. But at a high level of play everything becomes about what the agility player is going to do and the bash player plays around that/tries to limit options while removing players. Which is a totally valid skill expression on the bash part but it isnt about them if that makes any sense?

    Rant of half coherent thoughts over though I do have to say with a utterly straight face that dwarves are indeed one of the hardest teams to play at a higher level of play. Lack of movementspeed is extremely limiting against a good opponent.