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Norse Norse Starting Advice

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Ipnoom, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Ipnoom

    Ipnoom New Member

    Ok, I have been looking around these forums and a few others, and I have been reading about how skaven are very squishy, and to my determination, Norse are not much above that. Of course the Block skill gives them an edge (a fair amount of one) but still, when they go down, that 7 armor is not the best.

    The Norse seem to be a bit tricky to me, as they can be very aggressive, but it seems to me that they may have difficulties keeping men on the pitch. Several teams have been given a good analysis (thank you Coach), but I was wondering if I could get a breakdown on importance of runner/ulf and reroll levels.

    I have a few "friendly" games coming up and then a league starting, unknown if it is short or long, but I am thinking longterm.

    I have played a lot of BB back in third edition, so this LRB stuff is a little new to me, but I am a quick learner (hopefully).

    Mostly I am thinking Norse because I stumbled onto an unopened box of miniatures, and I would like to get some use out of them.
  2. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

    Country Flag:
    I'm yet to really try Norse myself, especially the new version with the roster changes. With their low armour I think the best way to play them is to get your hits in but to also try and stay out of contact with opposing players so they can't hit you back.

    Utilise Frenzy for crowd pushes to get the advantage of numbers to increase your blocking ability as well.

    Hopefully some of the more experience Norse coaches can chime in until I've had a chance to get use them myself.
  3. Ipnoom

    Ipnoom New Member

    ok, I played a test game and I included a "Yhetee" and a WW just so that I can see them in action, as well as a couple of blitzers and whatnot.

    Thanks to some incredible good injury rolls, my WW got 3 casualties in the first 3 turns :D, but I must not let that cloud my judgement, since I was knocking people down all over the place and just got lucky with his rolls. I see the WW as a fairly expensive but very adequate LOS disruptor with Frenzy, and his access to General skills on a regular roll should give him block right away (assuming I don't get a double or + strength, etc.:)) I think despite his high cost I can put 2 of them on the LOS and expect them to survive the beatdown with their higher str and av than my other stuff, though on defense it may be better to put some lineman there to take the hit.

    The Yhetee was much less impressive, but still lived up to my expectations. I put him on the LOS and for some reason my opponent always put a lineman next to him so that I had the easy wild animal roll without risking a blitz. I did not think I got full value out of Disturbing presence, as I had him on the LOS, the ball was rarely going near him. I am thinking I may wish to move him off the LOS and use him as a blitzer, maybe giving him Break Tackle so that even if I cannot reach the ball carrier, I can DP him, though using a wild animal in this way, especially one without block, may not be a good use.

    I am thinking of starting with max WW's and a catcher and a blitzer and 3 rr's. I just like the reliable usage of the WW's (no wild animal, hurray) and the 3 rr's are pricey, but I don't see my need for them going down, because I have no specialists that have most of the basic ball handling skills other than pass. I like having frenzy on the blitzer, but the extra move allowance and access to dodge on a regular improvement roll makes me take at least one catcher possibly both to start (even at the cost of the blitzer if need be, sigh). The only reason I don't automatically start with 2 is that I figure that they will hog SPP so I can level one fast. I am not sure from there where to go, grab a yhetee and some linemen? get another catcher and blitzer and the rest linemen? I don't want to wait too long on the Yhetee, since leveling him up on an undeveloped opponent will be easier, but I don't want to spread myself too thin.

    I guess I am still hoping a Nordic God will come down and bless me with his wisdom :)
  4. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    Norse are one of the best starting teams for a League given how many players start with Block. Some Coaches do not bother with the Throwers since they lack Sure Hands and Norse rarely play the passing game. I do think having one Thrower on the team is useful though once you have a bit of spare cash.

    Suggest start for Norse
    2x Ulfwerenar 220k
    2x Runner 180k
    2x Beserker 180k
    5x Linemen 250k
    2x Rerolls 120k
    1x Apothacary 50k

    The Runners will probably not get a lot of use out of Dauntless but it can be useful against Black Orc's and Chaos Warriors. Dodge is the best skill to start with followed by Sure Hands on at least one of them.

    Other than +Str I can not think of anything other than Block worth taking as a first skill on the Ulfwerenar.
  5. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

    Country Flag:
    Not sure I would start with only two rerolls on a team that can easily start with 3. Players don't double in cost and rerolls can't get killed!
  6. Ipnoom

    Ipnoom New Member

    would you dismiss the yhetee altogether?

    I think your list is pretty solid, I might drop one of the blitzers to a thrower or lineman so that I can get another reroll, because I think 3 is about right and the 120k or so for one after creation could be so much more. If I get a lineman and drop the apothecary and Blitzer and take an extra reroll, I only have to survive one match to have the cash to buy one after the first match (just pray any casualties come from the linemen).

    I am playing against a lot of new players so I almost think the Yhetee has some psychout value to scare the noobs :)
  7. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    Three Re-rolls is good. I would drop a Runner though not a Blitzer.

    Suggest start for Norse 10k left in the Bank.
    2x Ulfwerenar 220k
    2x Beserker 180k
    1x Runner 90k
    1x Thrower 70k
    5x Linemen 250k
    3x Rerolls 180k

    This route you propably want Sure Hands and Accurate on the Thrower and then Catch (after Dodge) on the Runners so you can play with a quick/short Pass game.
  8. Ipnoom

    Ipnoom New Member

    that looks like a solid starting roster. The only reason I was thinking 2 catchers is that they have the extra MA and I perceive the blitzer as "ready out of the box" whereas I see each catcher needing a few upgrades for them to really shine. Get the catchers up and going (maybe going safety with one and catcher with the other) and then when I have the cash (after apoth) getting a blitzer who will be quite effective at crowd pushing, etc. without any upgrades.

    Thanks for the advice guys, it is helping and please continue to give it, as I like reading it even if I foolishly ignore it :D
  9. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    What sort of league are you playing in with your Norse? Do you have a lot of different opponents or only a few?
  10. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Alright. I've got a couple dozen games under my belt and a (win+.5*tie)/games ratio of over 75% so I think I at least don't have to start all my posts about being a Norse noob.

    However I still don't have much experience at higher TVs.

    I agree that Norse are excellent on their first games. If you play well you can win with a wide variety of builds.

    So I advise looking to the somewhat longer run. So some advice I've found to work well

    -Don't go crazy starting with a bunch of AV7 positionals. You correctly identified their likelyhood of dying, so they make for a quick way to have much of your team value injured or KOed in the second half. Also unlike other teams where getting a blitzer provides that vital block skill, Norse linemen already have it, and so most of the time a lineman will do just as well as a positional.

    -start with at least 3TRRs, and I would actually suggest 4. Re-rolls can't die, and Norse like to eat them up. The reason is that in order to stay alive Norse need to throw blocks. You can't just stand there marking an opponent like a zombie or Orc would. That means throwing 1D blocks. Also Werewolves, who start out without block and like to throw two blocks a turn, can go through them fast. You also lack sure hands and have better skills to pick up than that. So there's another re-roll eaten up most games.

    -Norse really like having a bench. They like having numbers to get in the blocks they need to stay alive, and with AV7 KOs and injuries are just something you have to expect. That 12th player can really turn the game around. People more experienced than I am advocate getting to 13 or 14 fairly quickly if you can. At that point you can even consider fouling.

    -Werewolves are great positionals, and I'd advise starting with two of them. In your early games aggressivly try to hand off the ball to one of them for a touchdown if you have the field stabalized at all and have a re-roll or two. The benifit they give from skilling up is impressive. Block is the obvious choice and not a bad one. Though taking wrestle on the second for a more reliable takedown can be a good idea. However there are good arguments for taking guard or break tackle on them as a first skill, especially if you have more re-rolls.

    I don't advise wasting them on the line on defense. You want to keep that frenzy threat out there to make life hard on your opponents cage and generally to make the sidelines a scary place.

    For a starting build I'd suggest starting from

    2 WW
    1 Runner or zerker (The runner is a more reliable ball carrier, but a zerker gives more frenzy on defense and getting some early touchdowns with them can improve the team notably)
    8 linemen
    3 TRRs

    that leaves 110

    With that you might want to add a runner/zerker, an extra RR and lineman, or an extra lineman and the APO if you're feeling like playing it safe.

    note that I prefir a 12th player to an APO in the initial game. Playing outnumbered is a great way to need an apo twice.

    If you have 20K left over I wouldn't spend it on upgrading a lineman to a thrower. Save the cash for your next purchase.
  11. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Member

    First of all, hello (first time poster):

    I just wanted to chime in, starting up a Norse team myself. I'm a little torn on what to go with. First, some background:

    It's a league with all 24 LRB6 teams (six coaches, four teams each), you play every team that isn't yours at least once for a 20-game schedule, teams will, theoretically, carry over from season to season (we'll see).

    Having said that, there appears to be an ST5+ arms race going on. From the rosters I've seen:

    Chaos (Minotaur), Chaos Pact (Ogre, Troll), Goblin (2 Trolls), Halfling (2 Treemen), Human (Ogre), Khemri (4 Tomb Guardians), Lizardmen (Kroxigor), Nurgle (Beast of Nurgle), Ogre (multiple Ogres, obviously), Undead (2 Mummies), Underworld (Troll)

    I'm not sure about the Orc team and I control the Skaven, so that's not an issue. The Dwarfs don't have a Deathroller (the coach seems set against it) and the Chaos Dwarfs don't have a Minotaur yet, but very well might by the time I get around to them late in the season. But at a minimum, that's more than half the teams I play against.

    All of this is leading me to think that the Yhetee, with it's ST5 (and Claws) and the Catchers, with their Dauntless skill, might be more useful than the "Werewolves" (put in quotes because, look at the skills for chrissakes--that isn't a werewolf. I used to think "Ulfwerener" translated into "big, crazy guy named Ulf.") I also like the Agility access of the Catchers; adding Dodge would make it the best ball carrier the team could possibly have in the early going.

    Nevertheless, I don't think I'll need more than one Catcher at the outset, so the roster I was considering is:

    6 Linemen = 300k
    1 Catcher = 90k
    2 Blitzers = 180k
    1 Crazy Guy Named Ulf = 110k
    1 Yhetee = 140k
    3 Rerolls = 180k

    Total = 1000k

    Apo would be the first purchase, followed by another Catcher and another Ulf before moving on to the luxury of a Thrower. I know Wild Animal makes the Yhetee unreliable, but Claws are almost too good to pass up, reducing every opponent to AV7 for all intents and purposes, and the first skill upgrade (Mighty Blow) turns him into a damage rake.

    Most of the builds mentioned here go with 2 Ulfs. The thing that scares me is the combination of Frenzy and lack of Block (I know this applies to the Yhetee as well, but ST5 gives you a bit more breathing room). As Coach has rightly pointed out, I think the ideal Norse strategy involves being in a position to hit more than be hit. You can control this by following up on knockdowns that don't put you in a tackle zone... unless you have Frenzy, which doesn't leave you any choice. Block at least gives you the "Both Down" result as a potential option if you don't want to follow up.

    The other thing that worries me is forming the cage with Frenzied players. Ideally, they would make the best cage guardians, but I don't know how the Frenzy will affect my attempts to hold it together. Curious as to people's experiences with this.

    I'm open to being talked into another formation, including a defense of the Two Ulf system. My first four opponents are High Elf, Goblin, Dwarf and Chaos Pact, if that makes any difference.
  12. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

    What are the skills you should be taking on the Linemen? I figured Tackle would be a safe choice, but what about long term? First Linemen Skill ups as such: 1st Tackle, 2nd Tackle, 3rd Kick, 4th Strip bal/tacklel? Any argument for Fend instead of tackle?

    In response to the above post, you can still use both down to stop the Frenzy on the Ulfs if you want, just make sure you Frenzy last so the turnover won't hurt you as much. ;)
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  13. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    If you have a deep bench Dirty Player is good on Line-men. Tackle is good as is Fend if you are worried about opponents with Frenzy or Piling On.
  14. Kurgan

    Kurgan New Member

    Barnsley/ S Yorks
    Norse tactics

    I've been playing Norse for years & I must say without that much success, but with werewolf's at ST 4 & frenzy I've been winning a lot more with them. Crowd pushes is the way forward! The first skill you give them is stand firm to avoid the same happening to you & if you get lucky and a lineman gets a double give him the grab skill to help set up the crowd push, frenzy & grab can't go together. Before too long your opponent is funneled down the center of the pitch into your linemen all with block, plus there down on men.
    Also when blocking with the Norse I tend not to follow up to avoid the number of blocks the other side can do in return. That amour 7 is a problem.

    "Nuke'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
  15. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    I think that's an open question. However I get a lot of use out of kick and would suggest taking it on the first linemen to skill up. You can do a lot with kick, but a general rule of thumb would be to kick deep against bashy teams, making it hard for them to form a good cloud cage and possibly seperating their heavy hitters from the ball carrier and lighter attendents. Against agility teams kick shallow and to a side. The forces them to protect the ball instead of being able to use players to attack or go wide for a reception, and it often lets you put some TZs at least on their ball carrier on your first turn.

    Tackle is a solid choice as a skill on a lineman, though I'm becoming more fond of fend. Not only does it give PO and frenzy immunity, but it generally just messes up the opponents blocking scheme and will frequently result in the fend players being free of any TZs which is useful on both offense and defense.

    On doubles I go with guard, but grab could be fun.

    In any case Norse linemen with a regular skill are likely TV bloat, except for the easily replaced kicker. So don't worry about them much and don't waste an APO on them.
  16. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    I like fend instead of tackle because fend gives you what you need : to make sure you have free players to set up blocks and to avoid being too much hit in the face. It gives you things to do in your turn instead of having your av7 linemen stuck next to a blocker and relying on an AG3 dodge or a 1d block. Moreover, tackle is only useful against dodge if I remember well, so you need a few, but you do not need that many (except in an elf/amazon heavy league maybe). So, I would advise to take a few tackle and a lot of fend.

    ... but then again, I still struggle on understanding how to play av7 teams without suffering so much casualties I have to retire them in three games. :)
  17. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Something else I should say about Norse. You'll want to consider who your biggest threats are.

    Norse are not especially bothered by the lighter S3 sort of teams. Norse have a fairly good chance to win, and if they lose it isn't such a big deal.

    The teams that are a serious threat to Norse are the high strength +mighty blow teams. Norse need to be the ones throwing blocks, and that strength makes it hard. Moreover losing to a bash team can mean losing not just the game but a chunk of the team!

    Now some teams, like undead, have dodge as well as all that strength. Still I think dauntless might be good.

    The problem is that both dauntless and tackle are situational on playing a certain sort of team and than having your guy next to the right opposing player.. Wheras fend is almost always useful for any game and any matchup.

    But more dauntless is still tempting.....

    Sometimes I'm also tempted by pro. With only a 1 in 36 chance of double skulls it's fairly safe to pro a 2D block that didn't get your target down. If near the end of your turn it isn't even such a bad idea with a 1D block. Also useful for actions taking place after you've already used the turns re-roll. Maybe on one guy.
  18. Atomsk

    Atomsk New Member

    Tackle may be situational against certain teams, but you also have to recognize that any "ball hander" is more than likely going to get dodge at some point, any tenured player that needs to "stay up" is going to get dodge. I think Dauntless is more situational, if you want more take the extra runner/catcher, whatever your preferred nomenclature is.
  19. kitstjohn

    kitstjohn New Member

    I have played a norse team to 2 mill TV and have just restarted a team.
    The lack of armor worried me the first time so I invested a lot of 10's in it, which is not necessarily correct.
    The new team I went for:
    2 Ulfwereners 220 (they will always be ulfs to me)
    1 Runner 90
    1 Zerker 90
    1 Thrower 70
    7 linemen 350
    3 rerolls 180
    It worked for me. I have 4 wins and a draw after 5 games.
    I think Norse live and die by blocking as much as possible and by limiting the amount of block the opposition get in return.
    Just my initial thoughts,
  20. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Carefull about judging Norse by their first five games though. My league allows up to five times to be going at a time. So I'd started five Norse teams just to try and get good with them.

    I think I'm undefeaded in game one, and I know at least two teams went undefeated for their first five. They all did very well except one that got tore aparti in an unlucky underdog game against undead, and even they were still always having a winning season I believe.

    Its those later games Norse have to start worry about. There are plenty of good players to buy and skills to give them. But other teams are better (in part because Norse already have the best skill in the game)

    That and because AV7 isn't so bad vs regular armor rolls, but it really sucks once teams develop and get MB and PO. Norse can obviously get those skills too, but against AV9 they just don't accomplish so much.

    I'm still struggling to figure out how to get Norse to do well against "top of tier 1" bash teams like OrK and Dwarf.