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Nuffle Frustration (My rant about hating everything xD)

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Valdac, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. Valdac

    Valdac Active Member

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    So... After a few months of playing, I'm having some problems with the game and wanted to share so that you cheer me up and put me back on the right path.:(

    Is the outcome of Blood Bowl matches determined 95% by luck? (when you are not an absolut newbie). I have the feeling that it is. Most of my games during the last couple of weeks have been REALLY BORING. Either I won clearly, with nothing that the other player could do about it or it was the other way around. And it was not because of my/his decisions but because Nuffle decided that one had to win and the other was going to be there just looking.

    Don't get me wrong: I know that there are players around there that are much better that I am. In one or two games, the other player came up with a play that I just didn't see coming and beat me. I enjoyed those games more than the ones that I won with no opposition because I was ACTUALLY PLAYING (and losing xD) not just looking at players being there and ignoring all sense of probability during hundreds of plays.

    I can't avoid to think that, in most cases, you don't need to understand quantum physics to see the "optimal" sequence of actions during your turn. So, in the end, it's just luck.

    I always bring everything to Magic and similar card games, as it's what I know best. In Magic you have to:
    - Choose the 'archetype' of deck that you are going to play.
    - Choose the cards that you are going to use in your deck.
    - To do those two things you have to guess what the other players are going to bring (and what would work better against them).
    - You have to draw the cards in the right order (Nuffle!).
    - You have to do the right plays every turn.

    So, after a tournament, you probably lost a couple of games because of bad draws. It happens and you hate it... but that's it. The rest of the games were probably decided because you made the right deck choice but wrong plays or the other way around. Or maybe you did everything perfect and also had good draws and won the tournament xD. You are more in control of the situation, you are responsible of winning or losing (most of the time).

    Edit: Adding the same steps in BB.

    - Choose the 'archetype'/race: do you like bash? passing game?
    - Choose the players/skills. I might be silly but I don't think you have much of a choice in this regard trying to find the 'optimal' configuration. There is some room... but not as much.
    - Guessing what the others are playing: I suppose it makes sense in resurrection tournaments. Not much in leagues and nothing in MM.
    - Be lucky with the dice! (Nuffle!)
    - Do the right plays every turn.

    So, as the importance of the first 3 steps is reduced DRASTICALLY and the last step is exactly the same... the other factor, luck, gains A LOT of weight in the final outcome.

    For a few months I knew I was learning from every Blood Bowl game. I was getting better (9 games undefeated in the BC2 at the moment! Tomorrow I'm losing 100% sure xD). But now I feel stuck. Not learning, not improving and getting frustrated with good/bad luck streaks.

    Am I going crazy? Is is just me? How do you overcome this? Recommendations? Should I just break my laptop against the wall and go out to meet the future mother of my future children? :bothdown:

    Edit: I have never played in a resurection tournament, so talking mostly about leagues and MM (horrible MM system, btw. H.O.R.R.I.B.L.E.). Is the feeling a bit better in those tournaments?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  2. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    It can't be 95% luck, as some players are able to win fairly consistently which would not be the case if it was primarily down to luck. Having said that, it is a dice based game so you are always going to get the occasional match where either you roll horribly and fail all your key actions, or your opponent gets crazily good dice where everything works out. Theoretically these sort of games should balance out over time.

    There are things you can do to mitigate the random nature of the game, safe moves first and all that. I try and always have 1 RR left for a key play in a drive, obvious example would be trying to score around Turn 8 or 16 I would always want 1 RR in the bank for a crucial dodge/GFI/handoff etc. Even then though there will be occasions when the dice screw you over, that's just the nature of the game.

    If you can go 9 games undefeated in BC2 then you obviously have the basics down, (that or you have a better team than your opponents!). If/as you move up the the divisions you will find yourself coming up against better teams and coaches and playing these matches should improve your game further.

    Some of the streamers can be quite informative for tips, probably Fashbinder provides the best analysis of the streamers I have seen (never seen him actually play though!), he often does the CCL playoffs on twitch usually with Jimmy Fantastic.

    I've never played a res tournament (not played Magic either) as this is mainly tabletop format I believe, the option for res format will be added in Legendary edition on Cyanide though, hopefully in a couple of months:rolleyes:. No doubt there will be a few new tournaments here making use of this feature. As to MM I find it difficult to care enough to actually concentrate, can be useful for trying out new teams though I guess.

    I think my main advice would be to not take the game too seriously. By that I mean remember it is a game, play to win and do your best, but accept that sometimes Nuffle is just going to take a huge dump on you. Expect every roll to fail when you least expect it, then when you do get the good dice you should be pleasantly surprised. The main aim should be to have fun. If you are feeling stale then can always try a new team once this league season is over btw.

    The famous Blood Bowl coach William Shakespeare put it better, crediting his Human Blitzer 'Hamlet' with a speech, an extract of which I have copied below. Some say that 'to be' should of course be 2D:p.

    To be, or not to be- that is the question:
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
    And by opposing end them.
     
  3. Valdac

    Valdac Active Member

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    Thnxs @Regor. I will always keep Shakespeare words in my mind when I see that the kick event was a Blitz for the other coach. Also, my team in the BC2 is better than most: I'm playing lizards :cool:

    I know it's a game and I don't give it more importance than that. However, I like the competitive spirit of this type of games, strategy and decision making. I played Magic for years and, even though I was never a better-than-average player, I enjoyed it anyway. If I feel is all too random (not random but TOO random)... I don't care that much about the game and I don't enjoy as much as I could.

    I try to watch videos, mainly Jimmy and the Sage, but the problem with that is tha BB games are veeeery long. To be honest, I find it a bit boring to stay in front of one of those games during more than 1h. If I have that much free time I'd rather play a game myself (I know what you're thinking "don't complain if you choose not to learn from others"). If someone is reading this: please, make shorter videos with key/important plays and explanations on why you made those moves! I'd subscribe right now!! :p Something where you could stop the video, think what you would do, and then see if the "pro" player does the same. Oh god, love that idea. Blood bowl sudokus xD

    About those players winning consistently... I know. That's what keeps me here, because that means there is a logic behind all of this but that I cannot see it yet :oops:

    At least I'm not trying to block your tomb guardians over and over xD Step by step...
     
  4. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I would say that the closer you are in skill level with your opponent the more luck takes a part.
    I would say I win or lose around 10% of my matches due to luck.
    Most of the time the win or loss comes down to a couple of minor positioning errors.
    Following up a block when you should have stayed where you are , moving into contact and giving a free block , not moving into contact so the opposing player can move freely , pushing opposing guard players into suboptimal positions , having your guard player in the right place etc.
     
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  5. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    Well that's a start at least, see you are learning!, and I am Ravers not Regor!!:mad:
     
  6. Valdac

    Valdac Active Member

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    @Ravers @Regor all those @R being blinded by anger in this post ... it's confusing :oops: (This is a sorry in disguise to both of you)

    @tys123 now that you mention it, I agree. Those times when I think "ooops... shouldn't have followed that player". Probably those little silly (not so silly, I know) things are making the difference between amazing players, good players and rubbish like me xD I might have been underestimating their impact on the game.

    However, now it's 10 games undefeated... (had to say it xD) But just to go back to the original idea of the post, that's what happens when @Crowdog09 fails every GFI (RRs included) and my non-MB non-Block non-AnyOtherSkill Saurii break every AV roll, even killing/injuring orks several times. I think I played well and he did too but... you know, Nuffle.
     
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  7. Crowdog09

    Crowdog09 Active Member

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    That's blood bowl for ya. Sometimes you pitch clear Orcs and sometimes you can't remove Skaven linemen :rolleyes:
     
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  8. mamutas

    mamutas Well-Known Member

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    Word.

    I have been in games like this. Luck definitely plays a role (duh! dice!), but your positioning and risk mitigation is the most important aspect of the game. If you are patient enough to stick to focus on each move you'll do better than an average coach and luck theoretically evens out with enough number of statistical samples.
     
  9. chakkal2001

    chakkal2001 Active Member

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    Blood Bowl is pretty much like poker in this regard... Even with the best play and odd control you will lose hands no matter what... But is the final outcome what matters and that's why good players tend to win more money than they lose long term, reliably.

    As you mention, known good players are often on the top in leagues, so that should say something. In long tournaments things should even out by the end, good players can recover from 1-2 bad matches and still come victorious at the end! Of course bigger streaks of bad luck can happen, but that's why different seasons exist! :p

    Also very important to take breaks once in a while and not entering in 'TILT' mode during a match... embrace the bs and enjoy!
     
  10. madfrog

    madfrog New Member

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    To short youtube vids:
    Jimmy fantastic and VG Purist are doing both short vids, where they are rewatch game replays.
    Those are around 45 min.

    Maybe that is more in your favor ☺
     
  11. Valdac

    Valdac Active Member

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    @madfrog thanks!! I'll check that today!
     
  12. Jeliel

    Jeliel Well-Known Member

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    When I win it's because skill, when I lose it's about luck, that's BB 101! [​IMG]:D

    But in the long run if a coach is skilled, the trend will show consistency.
    As somebody else pointed out you will often see the same faces at the top of different leagues.

    If you’re unlucky like me though, you will only collect only 2nd places. ;)

    Plus is absolutely necessary to take breaks from time to time, every veteran will tell you that.
     
  13. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    One thing your analysis doesn't really cover is the positional game. It's relatively easy to make the optimal moves each turn in the sense of calculating probabilities, doing low risk moves first, giving yourself the best chance of getting the ball or setting up columns or whatever, but that isn't where the game is really won. Strategy and positioning is where the game is really won and it's much more complex and I don't think it's even helpful to think in terms of optimal but rather instead of a bunch of strategic choices.

    For example I have two AV8 elf teams in leagues at the moment and both have been performing relatively poorly compared to my other teams. I may have had some bad luck but more importantly I've been playing a style that just didn't suit the team.

    I'm used to Skaven and Slann agility teams and with both your best bet is to run the ball. You have the speed/skills to go round defenses and you lack passing skills. I wanted to learn the passing game with elves but tr he subtleties of it are a lot more complex than your standard two turner. When should you hang back with your thrower and when should you move the ball up to midfield?!How do you position your receivers and screens? All these choices are easy enough to execute, but the challenge is making the right choice positionally and for me that's taken a long time.

    Similarly on defense I wanted to play AV8 to learn the column defense style which I could never make work as Skaven. Well guess what, I can't make it work now either! Maybe for some players it's good but I've had much better results by going for a heavy ball pressure defense, again subtly different from the way I would execute the same as Skaven because I don't have the speed to really separate the bc from the cage but I do have the AV to crash the cage once or twice a drice. Took me a long time to decide that was my best option too.

    The best players, whom I do not count myselg among, also know how to use mindgames to trick you into positional errors. The other day I was playing a good khemri player who tempted me into attacking his cage so he could box me in, it was brilliant and destroyed my defense. Yes the tipping point came when I failed an early 2+dodge but he continually put me in positions where I had to start my turn with those and one was going to fail eventually.

    Of course you will have games that are blowouts one way or the other, but as others have pointed out those are rare. Far more common are games where positional errors combine with a little bit of managably bad dice to make a game look one sided. In those situations it's easy to blame the dice, but a better coach would probably have not been in a situation where those dice mattered as much.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  14. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    As travel scrabble alluded, when you play someone who is excellent at positioning you find yourself somehow needing to start each turn with a 1 die block or 3+ dodge or other such nonsense. It's maddening that some coaches can pull this off even with an equal number of players.
     
  15. Larkstar

    Larkstar Active Member

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    Figured I'd throw out my thoughts, after all I am the last coach to beat you (sorry, had to be said :D!) As TS alluded to, Strategy (along with positioning) can absolutely save your ass when your luck is average or worse and your opponents is average or better. The simple decision of whether to kick off or receive is sometimes the biggest factor in a match. Using Inducements and/or countering the opposition's Inducements is a game within a game. Advanced coaches can force/trick players to the sideline and focus on a Frenzy/Surf strategy. And my personal favorite, orchestrating chain pushes for all sorts of gains!

    Another thing that might not get enough publicity is the ability to recognize your own strengths and weaknesses. For example, I've always been better defensively, while my struggles tend to be on offense. If you can figure out your pluses and minuses, you can adapt your game (with all teams really) to accentuate your strengths and minimize your failings.

    Alternatively, you could do a better job of not tailoring your Dwarf team to be Deathroller centered and then failing ALL FIVE of the Bribes you've worked hard to earn. Up yours Nuffle! :cool:

    Looking forward to our rematch in a few weeks!
     
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  16. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

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    However.

    Amazing as all the great advice above is, blood bowl players (including me) do tend to be invested in the incremental gains to be made from experience and careful, clever play.

    What can't be denied is that you are rarely genuinely long odds from an absolute disaster you'll be powerless to prevent. And because it's not actually that unlikely it can happen to the same player several times in just a few games. I guess those are the times people tend to start threads like this.

    In those circumstances I think the sympathy of your fellow coaches is as useful as constructive advice.
     
  17. Veggente85

    Veggente85 Well-Known Member

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    I learned that if you stop investing your self-esteem in this dice-based game, streaks of bad luck are easier to cope with.

    Since I started to write troll comments about both my and my opponent's dice rolls, I live the game much better. Unfortunately, the same doesn't always apply to those among my opponents that are still in the "competitive mind set" dark side of blood bowl. :D
     
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  18. JaspersaurusRex

    JaspersaurusRex Active Member

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    It's frustrating for everyone at some point. At the point if smashing a mouse or keyboard against the wall..Just finish your game and go watch some cabalvision. I like watching and trying to predict every move and that has given me more insight than playing for sure. Why did he do this..Why is he moving there. And the best part of cabalvision is if you find a game late in the second half you can rewind it and watch it in fast forward basically
     
  19. Valdac

    Valdac Active Member

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    Touché xD Probably my biggest improvement-area... The problem is that learning it is less obvious compared to, lets say, the little mistakes mentioned in earlier posts where you choose to follow/stay after a block. It's something less "tangible". Again, it's something that would probably be improved faster by watching better players play but... the games are too long for me to do that, so the only alternative is to play more and more trying to pay attention to the positioning (and just watching your own play-style is not always the best way to learn, although you can improve).

    I know... Taking all the frustration out was just one of the goals of this post. The main one was for you all to point out things that I could check/improve/practice/pay attention to/... And it's working! Positioning is high in my list now.

    Only in the BC! In the Munch Spoon I've lost several times (@Ravers and his Khemri... hate them xD). I'm already afraid about our game... I don't want my little lizards killed :oops: And it's 11 games now! :cool:

    In the couple of games that I mentioned where the other player clearly outskilled me, they managed to create some really nice chain pushes. I couldn't see those plays coming! But now I try to be more "creative" and be prepared for those too! (will need practice though)

    I feel exactly the other way and it's not race dependant, as happens with Lizards, Necro, Norse, etc... Except with Chaos. I'm ALWAYS really bad with Chaos xD

    With me, it seems to be dependant on the team that I'm using xD As mentioned before, my BC2 team is doing more or less OK but every time that I try to play in the MM I get completely wrecked xD. It came to a point where, for once, I was destroying another team... and my router died in the middle of the game. That level of unlucky (it's the only time that has happened in over 2 years xD). I'm also playing in another league where, after two seasons, my Chaos Warriors keep being injuried and getting nothing but skulls. One day they will improve in the art of blocking :(

    Sorry, my English is not always as good as I'd like. I don't understand this :oops:

    I can't stop having that "competitive mind set". I mean, I'm playing a only-hobgoblins team in another competition and it's really fun. They get diced, they die, they are injuried... and sometimes they score TDs xD. I really enjoy playing them just for fun but it's just a silly team in a silly competition. In other "environments", I like the feel of competiton and it keeps me engaged and trying to improve. And it's there where being diced hurts xD

    Yes! I think I mentioned in another post that I think this is one of the best ways of improving things like positioning... My problem is that after 5 minutes watching someone else play, I just want to play and stop watching!:p Seems like I should improve my autocontrol too xD
     
  20. Valcurdra

    Valcurdra Active Member

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    If you want to get better at position play I recommend khemri.

    They rely almost entirely on excellent position. If you stuff up position you will lose the ball and struggle to get it back.

    Normally if you stuff your position up, you can spend the next turn thinking of a plan to blitz free the ball you just lost. With khemri there is often no path to do that, so you spend your time thinking about how you should have positioned yourself better in the first place.