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Tactics Passing with a little bashing - Humans or High Elves?

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Fjellvross, Feb 12, 2015.

?

I should go with the...

  1. ...Humans!

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  2. ...High Elves!

    11 vote(s)
    78.6%
  1. Fjellvross

    Fjellvross New Member

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    Hi,

    we're going to start a league, my opponents will play Orks, Dwarfs, Khemri and Humans.
    I made some games with Norse, but it didn'tdidn't satisfy me. I want to play passes!

    But in that league i need a passing team with the ability to bash a little bit. So i looked around and at least two races still stayed in my eyes: Humans and High Elves.

    What team of the two should i prefer?
    The humans can have 4 blitzers and in my eyes the skills at the start are a little better for passing. But the High Elves already have AG4, and thats a huge advantage i think, because skills are easier to get than AG+1.
    On the other side, Elves are much more expensive, so they start with fewer RRs, if they can get even one?

    This would be my starting teams (because my miniatures are ready to play...):

    Humans: 4 Blitzer/2 Thrower/2 Catcher/4 Linemen/1 Apo/2 RR/1 FF

    High Elves: 2 Blitzer/1 Thrower/2 Catcher/6 Lineelves/1 Apo/1 RR/1 FF

    Which team should i start with?
     
  2. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    With human the focus should always be on running the ball with passing as an option if things get tricky.
    High Elves are however mainly a passing team. Their armour means they can bash a bit but they don't have ST access so are short on guard and MB.

    If you go with the high elves I would switch the apoth for a reroll. Win the 1st game and there is over 75% chance of getting the cash for an apoth. Save the cash from the FF and it is even better. You only have 2 players with block and none with dodge so will need rerolls. It is cheaper to buy them at the start so just hope for no permenant injuries in your 1st game.
     
  3. Tjorne

    Tjorne Member

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    If you take the Humans, take an Ogre!
    I know you are restricted by miniatures, but they are just a weak team without it's strength. (Switch out the Catchers and one Thrower for Linemen and drop the Apo, then you have the money). Humans are more a running team as Tys already said, and they bash way better than High elves. Main reasons are the Ogre (obviously) and the STR access on the Blitzers.


    For mainly passing I would choose High elves over Humans, maybe even consider switching to Pro Elves (though they are very un-bashy). I am not an expert Elf coachthough, so I can not give you much feedback on the starting roster there.


    I would however generally not buy FF with starting money. It is generally better to save it for an apo (which I usually don't buy for starting rosters).
     
  4. St Cloud

    St Cloud Well-Known Member

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    Ever considered Dark Elves? They are bashier then their noble born cousins due to the 4 blitzers and the witches but with their agi 4 have a good potential for chucking the ball.
     
  5. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

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    Yes, dark elves are bashier due to the witches. That would be my recommendation.

    Otherwise with humans you simply must take the ogre.
     
  6. PaloLV

    PaloLV Member

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    Since High Elves are not bashy at all by any reasonable standard the only choice left is Humans.

    Humans can pass just fine especially once they develop a thrower a bit. If you get lucky and roll +Agi on a Human thrower they become very reliable passers. They don't require +Agi though because just one double on an Agi 3 Human Thrower lets them have Strong Arm and Accurate for 3+ 10 square passing.

    A High Elf team would need lots of doubles to get Guard and some MB to bash.

    The final thing in favor of Humans are their awesome cheap linemen. 50k base plus 20k for DP? Foul foul foul.
     
  7. Fjellvross

    Fjellvross New Member

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    At first, thx for the answers!

    But i don't want to play a bashing team that can play passes, i want to play a passing team that can get some hits.

    With the norse (i've played 5 games, 3 vs. dwarves and 2 vs. Orcs, that are 2 of the teams in my league, the other ones are khemri and humans, all not known for their fast and agil playing...)) i was not very satisfied. In offence there were not many efforts because my ball carriers didn't made it trough the defence, and in defence the block skill is fine, but with AV7 too much players go out.

    I've tried the high elves in pc game some games now. Okay, it's not really 1:1-measure to the tabletop, but what i saw there was just that what i was looking for.

    So, i will start with this team:
    1 Thrower/2 Catcher/2 Blitzer/6 Lineelves/2 RR/10k gold in the treasury
     
  8. SovereignStrike

    SovereignStrike Member

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    Also, 4 blitzers.
     
  9. CariadocThorne

    CariadocThorne Member

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    Probably too late to help much, but definately go high elf.

    High elves have the best throwers in the game, with arguably the second best catchers after pro elves, and while pro elves probably have the best overall passing game, the gap is small and high elves are much bashier.

    Between high elves and humans, the high elves are far better at passing play, and while they aren't as good at bashing early on, they quickly become better at bashing than humans, so long as you are good with positioning and you don't get to unlucky with injuries.

    Simply having universal access to dodge cancels out the humans advantages as you'll weather your opponents blocks better, giving you more guys standing to block back. You can also dodge away to pick your fights,making it easy to gang up on players and get 2d blocks. Add skills like sidestep and jump up and you can really bash well.

    It also helps that you can skill up even linemen more easily than other races can.

    I recommend a thrower, 2x blitzers, 8x linemen and 3x rerolls to start. You don't need a catcher when your whole team has ag4, and even later on when you get catchers, i find them most usefull hunting the ball carrier, with quick TDs as an option if you need it.
     
  10. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    Humans is the team I would pick, they are my favorit team in BB after all.

    I do love the passing game (always loved imagining/seeing the passes, especially a maximum ranged longbomb find it's way into the hands of the one you passed to), but also really like the bashing game. On the offence I like to beat my way through the opponents and open up a or severtal lanes for my people to pour through and set up screens, and then at a choicen moment throw the pass to the right person... to then in the same, or the next turn, of the pass, run in the ball for a TD. And on the defence I like to screen the opponent as much as possible, get my people in the places they need to go, and then try to beat my way into the cage, or through their screen, to get at the ball carrier, knock the ballcarrier down, swoop in with someone (optimally my thrower) to pick up the ball, get out of there, and pass it to one of the guys I have strategicly placed within reach of both the pass and to score a TD with their regular amount of movement.

    So the amount of teams I feel I can use is a bit limited. It is even more limited if you take into account that I like mobility as well, and that I have never liked the running and/or cageing type of gameplay my self much... anything slower then roughtly Norce is to slow for me.

    But I also like humans because I do happend to play a very highrisk "bash-and-pass" heavy type of a gameplay (as you might have seen in what I wrote above, actually I play this way with all teams I choice to play)... and I find Humans to work very well doing that. The only person on my team though that I do actually work on towards the goal of playing a passing game, is the Thrower. All other players on my teams I tend to work towards the bashing aspect of the game, including my Catchers (I feel they are good enough at catching the ball from the start, so I don't feel I need to make them better at catching... unless I roll a +AG, which I would take instantly). Although... I do have a feeling that I tend to pass more often then even "pass heavy elven teams" do... because I will go out of my way to pass the ball when ever I feel safe doing so (and my tolerance here seems to be higher then most... 4+ chance for a pass are good odds in my mind)... even with players who are not the Thrower.

    Now, from the sounds of things, your not as interested in bashing as I am. Your bashing aspect of your play sounds to be more "when and where I have to", rather then my style where I will throw my self into a fight head first almost all the time. But I do not think that is to much of a problem, all you have to do is build your team towards more your style. Where your catchers will probably be developed more towards being able to become better catchers and runners, rather then the mini blitzers that I tend to develop my catchers to (after my catchers reach lvl 3 though, and have gotten Block + Dauntless, asuming no doubles or stat increase, then I do not score TD's with them as often anymore... and start to try and hand out TD's to other players on my team). And your other players are more developed towards a better suited kind of bashing for what you want, then the one I tend to go for (on standard level ups my Blitzers get: Tackle, Mighty Blow, Guard, Dauntless... where as my Linemen will get: Block, Tackle, Dauntless). I would asume most people would build their Blitzers and Linemen different from how I build them (like build different kinds of Blitzers and Linemen, Give some guard earlier, build others to killers early with MB as first skill, or ball hunters with tackle and/or strip ball, give linemen skills like wrestle or fend, etc... I just don't feel I can do that, for various reasons).

    Then of course there is the Ogre. An Ogre is, in my mind, a must have for all Human teams... even if you just use the Ogre as nothing more then a roadblock. I of course tend to hit with my Ogre almost every turn, (usually never first though, more towards the end of my rounds when other more safe things have been done first... unless of course it is vital to my current stratagy to use the Ogre first) but I know a lot of people do not really like to do that with Big Guys. But again, even as just a roadblock, Ogres are awesome. And, since their SPP earning is not all that reliable, I would prefer to get an Ogre from the start... to give your Ogre the biggest chance to earn enough SPP to get a bit more useful towards the later part of a tournament... I mean even with just Guard the Ogre becomes even more useful.

    Granted... in just the passing and catching game, a team like High Elves will be better... always. But at the same time their bashy abilities are lower then Humans, due to the fact that High Elves only have Strength skill access on doubles, and that they do not have a big guy at all. But, even without Strength access, you can still be a pretty allright basher with only General skills (Block, Tackle, Dauntless... and/or Dirty Player, Fend, Strip Ball, and Wrestle, if one likes those skills), and with access to Agility skills you can add things like Dodge, Jump Up, and Side Step to help with resisting parts of the bashing you will rechive as well. So going either with Humans of High Elves will give you different advantages and disadvantages.

    My starting human team always consists of:

    1 Thrower
    2 Catchers
    4 Blitzers
    1 Ogre
    3 Linemen
    2 Re-Rolls
    And 40000 gold saved to buy an Apothecary after the first match.


    But I could see an alternative that others might prefer, by getting 3 RR by going for:

    1 Thrower
    1 Catcher
    4 Blitzers
    1 Ogre
    4 Linemen
    3 Re-Rolls
    And 10000 gold saved.


    Of course, another alternative, is to get 2 throwers... so maybe replace 1 of the catchers in my first version with a thrower... or maybe even remove one Lineman and pay an extra 20000 gold to get a 2nd Thrower instead. Personally I prefer to start with 1 Thrower, so most of my throwing related SPP earnings is targeted at that 1 Thrower, rather than 2. Of course, that leaves me slightly vulnerable, since my passing game is hampered if my Thrower get's taken out... but all I do then is turn to a more running type of gameplay, humans are after all a very versatile and flexible team... granted, even then I tend to pass more often then I should. XD
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  11. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    I think you missed a trick with darkelves. They have better armour, 4 blitzers and 2 runners with pass access. Yu do miss out on catchers though.

    Have fun.
     
  12. Valokiloren

    Valokiloren Well-Known Member

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    Right, I'm gonna chip in my two pence for the sake of the issue. As someone who now feels somewhat confident to convert EVERY team into a passing one if I can help it, I feel like I can do this topic some justice.

    First off, there is no passing game with a bit of bash on the side. No matter what anyone else tells you, the passing game is simply a second option to open up possibilities and to add to your toolbox when you play. Blood Bowl is still a bash and run game on offense - because it uses less dice and is a much more natural way to play. Secondly, the number of teams who can play a realistic passing game are very small due to it needing a movement of seven on receivers for a reliable scoring threat and a multitude of said players. There is no point in having a super receiver if said player can never blitz his way to the endzone with minimal help - because it just means that player will be marked to high heaven. And if you only have one receiver on the team, if that guy gets taken out then your passing game is effectively neutralised. The exception to this would be a team with AG4 across a variety of players, since they can make passing a doddle to perform.

    The thing is - bash and screening are the primary weapons you can use as a passing coach. The only reason I am The Dreaded with passing in BC is due to the fact that I have a nasty bunch of offensive pieces to tear a hole in a defence and then I can make proper usage of my ridiculously good thrower. It helps that I play with a mutation-friendly team, which opens up a larger variety of options for player progression. But if you cannot open up a passing lane or swarm a gap with potential receivers then you cannot make use of passing as a reliable scoring method.

    It is impossible to reliably mark more than three receivers a turn and maintain a good defensive parity if the team numbers are equal. This is because to reliably mark a receiver you need to force them to make a minimum of two dodges to get free of their marker or force them to make a blitz and potentially a dodge to do the same. While you possibly get away with using just three players to mark all three receivers, like so:

    xDx
    xRx
    xxx

    or

    sxx
    sRD
    sxx

    (x = free space; R = receiver; D = defender; s = sideline)
    The first example is when the defender is forcing dodges into their own tackle zones or a 1D blitz so that the receiver can get to the Endzone that turn. The second is the obvious trapped on sideline.

    You tend to need two defenders per receiver, so on average about five defenders will be used to mark three receivers. That leaves six players to screen or mark the opposing team, which will have a greater chance of forcing their desired play due to greater numbers and multiple solutions. The amount of times I've forced undesirable situations on my opponent due to the fact that I can forcibly swarm the backfield and allow their reaction to dictate which play will be used is somewhat unbelievable due to the high number of times I've managed it.

    As for the best team to make the passing game happen? I would point either at Dark Elves or Humans. Because both of them have the team compostion to allow them to open up passing lanes on a consistant and regular basis.
    Dark Elves have six blodgers with six basic skills, though Witch Elves make great Wrodgers as well so either/or concerning them. Then since the entire team has AG4, you are looking at a whole bunch of potential receivers which opens up a lot of trouble if you choose to play the passing game. Because of these two things plus a great potential running game, it is practically impossible to completely shut down a Dark Elf offensive drive, especially since Runners often work in pairs and can Dump-off to either one another or another Dark Elf player and therefore "waste" the opponent's blitz to try to claim the ball. The only "weakness" they have is that the team only has average strength and cannot deal with well-supported Roadblock Big Guys amazingly well.

    Humans have less agility but the major strength of a human team is the number of positionals available to them on such a good statline. 4 Blitzers; 4 Catchers; 2 Throwers (though only one is really needed); and an Ogre make for a lovely 11 positionals on a team. And since those players all develop well, or in the case of the Ogre, are incredibly reliable for their player type, you can often overwhelm your opponent with smart play. You have a hefty punch due to 4 Blitzers + a STR5, and that is without taking into account what Dauntless does to your Catchers. Dauntless Human Catchers are among the best positionals at Lvl 3 in my opinion, since they are still probably only 110 TV and yet are Blodge Dauntless or Wrodge Dauntless at 8/2/3/7 and due to possessing Catch, they are also terrific receivers. The weakness of Human teams is that you need to have all your players in pairs to work reliably, and you cannot field all eleven positionals at the same time. What I mean by that is that a single Blitzer or Catcher working solo will often be shut down and dealt with, often with extreme prejudice, by an opposing coach, but having them in pairs or groups allows for greater protection on your own side and forces an opponent to commit more to dealing with them. I tend to use two pairs of Blitzers who are then backed up by a single Catcher each, to allow for threats on either side and act as a harsh punch-dagger to any static defensive team.

    The key point though is that both of my chosen teams for passing for the sake of passing make use of a solid bash core to force the point. There is no passing without a receiver, and a receiver who cannot score or help to score is no use to a team. So bash is the key to the passing game just as it is to the running game, if not more so.
     
  13. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    Unless of course you play pro elves.
    They score with no bashing ability at all.

    Removing players from the pitch is a plan D at best with pro elves.

    Plan A is to run people into the opposing half of the pitch , blitz off one of those being marked , pass to him and score.
    Plan B is to run people into the opposing half of the pitch. Pass to a player that is marked relying on NoS then dodge away for the TD.
    Plan C is to avoid being hit for a bit before going for either plan A or B.
    Plan D is hit something and pray for amazing dice.

    You want passing to be your main way of scoring you need to play a type of elf.
    Pro's do it best but can't bash at all.
    High Elves have better armour but don't pass quite as well
    Dark Elves can pass but work better with the running game due to lack of in built rerolls.
    Wood Elves aren't as good as pro's at passing but have wardancers to help with the running game and defence.
     
  14. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

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    Also, to add to what Tys has said, when you defend against an agility team that sets up a passing play (pro elves come to mind :) ), you will rarely outright stop them - that's why they committed to it in the first place (or they are desperate).

    Instead, you have two goals. One - make them roll dice for it. You never know, something might fail. Two - make them score quickly. Assuming they get the pass off, your goal, really, is to make sure they score right then and there. At least it's a quick TD, you get to receive and maybe do some bashing in return (and hopefully score back, too).

    Point two is why it's extremely important to not over-commit. Yes, double-teaming every receiver may seem appealing, but if the opponents are faster than you are (and they probably are if they are passing), they can disengage and switch field, or simply not throw the pass and run up instead. Now you are in trouble, because you can't cover their advance, and they will be able to waste at least two extra turns before scoring anyway. So when defending the pass, force rolls, but don't over-commit.
     
  15. CariadocThorne

    CariadocThorne Member

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    Hurrying elves isn't always a good idea.

    If an elf coach specialises in scoring on defense, he wants to score quickly, minimizing his casualties and giving him more time to patiently break down your offence without taking excesssive risks and then score. If things go really well, a 2 turn offensive TD can be followed by a couple of 3 turn defensive TDs for 3 TDs in one half, which is game over.

    Against this kind of elf coach, stalling his offense MAY make him rush and be more likely to make a mistake, giving you an opening to score yourself.

    I recently suffered my biggest loss since switching to high elves (4-0) against a necromantic coach who said afterwards that he knew how to beat me as soon as he saw 2 throwers with dodge, sure hands and nerves of steel but no accurate or strong arm.

    Just saying that conventional wisdom doesn't always apply, and some teams are built to exploit it.
     
  16. Valokiloren

    Valokiloren Well-Known Member

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    To follow up on my earlier post, and in a bid to somewhat address the subsequent replies, I'd make the following observation on passing:
    If you, as a passing coach, are being forced to make a play as opposed to forcing your opponent to react to your actions, then something has gone wrong with your offensive drive. A good portion of the time this is still salvageable, but the fact that it got to that stage in the first place means you didn't do enough work to ward off a counterattack.

    On the subject of defending against passing, specifically the whole neutralising receivers angle: it's a difficult one to judge. On the one hand, using too few players to neutralise receivers makes it all too easy to get at least one receiver to break free and be dangerous once more; while using too many players to mark up on the other hand allows the thrower or other players to more reliably contribute to moving up the pitch and helping with the offensive drive.

    I would argue that screening as opposed to marking works well, except it really doesn't. While forcing passes to potentially be intercepted results in a dice roll in favour of yourself with no clear negatives, the fact that the pass is being made in the first place calls into question exactly why wasn't this situation stopped beforehand. A lucky 6 can save a defensive nightmare, but you should try to neutralise either the thrower, receivers or preferably both as opposed to getting into passing lanes to intercept.

    So far as forcing a quick transition, bear in mind that anyone confident/ cocky/ insane enough to make passing a primary tool in their playbook is going to develop their team, or at least a few players, to avoid the primary methods of forcing a transition. AG3 players can still dodge on a 3+ into zero tackle zones, which is a lot more likely that it would otherwise look. If receivers have Dodge or are AG4 or have something else to help with dodging, then the rolls are easier still. Forcing them to make them to reposition is better than nothing, but it is exceedingly easy to delay a drive's conclusion regardless of how you plan to score.

    On the subject of playing defence AS a passing team... I have nothing which doesn't apply to running teams. Making sure you have some ability to bash is vital for any defence since marking doesn't work well, and the more bash you can bring the better since the majority of teams you will be facing will be running scorers, meaning that neutralising just a couple of players on their teams will vastly reduce their ability to score - the ballcarriers. Oh, and unless you somehow have twelve amazing players on your team - field your thrower on defence. Regardless of the fact that is considered "wrong" to do so, I would point out that while not fielding them guarantees their safety, by not fielding them you are a) using a player you deemed less useful in the first place which is why they aren't used all the time and b) are lowering the ability for the thrower to gain SPP.
    In terms of a. - if you aren't using the player who is taking the thrower's spot on defensive drives in the first place, then they clearly aren't a good player since you'd otherwise use them all the time. The player in question to replace a thrower is often a rookie 0-16 choice, since the fact that they lack skills is precisely why they aren't at very least LOS material. The only exception is a Kick Lineman, who if they are solely used for Kick and possibly fouling will not accrue a lot of SPP and may not be useful on offensive drives. Even still, I would advise sticking Kick on a player as an additional skill as opposed to devoting a team slot to a kicker.
    In terms of b. - practically every thrower will pick up Block early, meaning that they ought to be able to defend themselves from the odd block or blitz thrown their way. Unless you are playing a team full of killers, the vast majority of opposing blitzes used will be made to try to help a team score. So unless you then place your thrower in the firing line, you shouldn't be too worried about them getting hurt. And by fielding a Block Thrower, you can use them to pick off rookies in 2DFor blitzes if you feel the need to make said play. This both helps the team to defend, and can potentially allow you to rack up more SPP.

    Mostly though, passing is a question of mentality as opposed to skill. Its effectively just a game of Chicken or a dare to show that you have more courage than your opponent, since you are making more dice rolls and said rolls are probably going to be unnecessary. That's the best piece of advice I can give really - because its still not as sane or as reliable as a running game, it just looks cooler.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  17. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

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    I really have to agree with Valo on the Dark Elves. Because during all my years playing the table top, since mid 90's, the Dark Elves where the only other BB team I really liked to play. Granted, back then they still had "Throwers", instead of "Runners" as they have now... but your not to far away from building a pretty good Thrower with Dark Elves anyway.

    Also... I have to say that a lot of what your saying about the passing game, Valo... does resonate with me... a lot. And to an extent a lot about your philosophy as to how to play a passing team is sort of how I play them... I just never realized, or "knew", that this is how I have sort of been playing, and more just felt "I play this way because I like to play this way, because I think it is fun"... rather than "If I do this, and this, and this, I will optimize my ability to score and win" (even if I do to some extent do that to... just far far far less then "because it's fun").

    I don't play exactly like how you wrote, but it is pretty close enough really. And I tend to have a different kind of philosophy about how I want to skill up my players, compeared to basicly everybody else that I have ever played against, or read about here or on other places online. But it is what works for me, and it is what I find to be fun to play, and the skill thing (amongst other things) conformes to the OCD parts of my mind for certain things (I don't really like to not have the same kinds of skills on each type of player, like Blitzers or Catchers, etc... and I prefer to take them in the same order to... so for a human Blitzer is it always going to be Tackle, Mighty Blow, Guard as the first three... the only exception I am fine with for this is if they get a stat increase or rolls a double, or for the first lineman which usually get's kick instead of block... but even there I can feel "Oh damn it... now he/they won't have the same skills as the others!"). XD

    Even from the first moments of me getting into playing BB back in 96, I instantly was drawn to this typ of bashy passing play. Because at the same time I felt that all other styles... be they heavy caging and inching your way forward, or heavy screaning running game, or a combination of caging with screening, etc... where all just so... oh so frelling boring. Not to mention that I find the whole part of staling your TD's to be equally boring. I mean sure, they are very effective tactics, and they do probably win more games then most/all other tactics... I just can't bring my self to play that way to much (unless I for some reason have to at that moment). and especially staling my TD's is something I have a HUGE problem with doing, it goes against almost all the fibers in my body to do so.

    So, I think that due to how I felt, and feel, about playing those kinds of tactics... I started to develop this highrisk "Bash'n'Pass" type of style, and the fact that Humens are my absolut favorit team (both since I prefer to play human in all games if possible... but also because I really love the Human teams "Jack of all trades" thing) also played it's role in how my general gameplay tactics developed. I would always do the safe things first, get people where they needed to be and all that, but then usually towards the end of my round (especially if the opponent had the ball) I would try something stupid to try and get the ball.

    That was part of my set up in a turn, make sure that I was still somewhat safe towards the next turn, but leave a few people who could capitalize on the off chance that my kamikaze plan acctually worked and the ball was knocked lose, but still be relevent to the defence of my next turn if my stupid move failed. If I succeeded though those players would go into action, get to the ball in some way, pick it up if possible, pass it over to someone who could score a TD if possible, maybe hand it off to someone who could pass it instead, or otherwise try and secure it by passing/hand-off'ing to a guy for protection, to even further get it to safety or score a TD.

    Also most people tend to have a missconception that bashy teams are somehow "immune" them selves being bashed when playing against teams that are not considered to be "bashy". But the truth is that they are almost as vulnerable to being taken out as most other teams... if anything bashy teams are much easier to take down then other teams... just by the sheer fact that they don't have a huge amount of Dodge on their team. To me dealing with a Dodge heavy team is much more difficult, then dealing with a bashy team (be it due to them having a lot of ST4, and/or other bashy skills). There is nothing more frustrating to me then constantly failing to knock a Block Dodger down, and just pushing them around or something, due to not having Tackle.

    That is why Tackle is always going to be the second most importent skill to me (nr 1 being block), because it increases your ability massivly to knock down Dodge heavy teams.... a 2 our of 6 chance, instead of 1 out of 6 (if asuming the opponent has Block Dodge)... I already have a chance of 2 out of 6 vs most bashy teams to begin with, so I don't feel I need to anything there untill a bit later by getting Dauntless or something (depending on what possition it is etc).

    So... to me it does not matter who the opponent is, or what kind of team they have decided to play... be it a nimble, quick, and agile teams like elves or skaven (to a degree)... or a big (or small), brutish, and deadly, bashing/grinding team... or any other kind of team and play style combo... it does truly not matter to me. Because on the offence I will still do everything I can to punch you in the face, break through your line, pass the ball, and score a TD as soon as possible. And then on my defensive turns I will do what I can to punch you in the face, break your cage/screen, then punch your ballcarrier in the face (a bit of a kamikaze style of an attack is not all to unusual here, you can't succeed if you do not try after all), then steal the ball, pass it to one of those guys over there which where deliberatly placed in range of the End Zone, and score another TD... Lather... Rince... Repeat...

    Granted... it does not always work... But again, I don't really care, this is the style I find fun to play. And when those "impossible moves" do finally work (because they will eventually, it is just a matter of trying)... awesomeness. There is a reason why my friends think, and have said, about me that "You/he can do things with Humans and AG3, that others can not do with Elves and AG4!"... or "Michael? Oh he is that guy who always pull of the impossible playes and moves!"... or "It does not matter how well I protect my ballcarrier, I still don't feel the ball is safe when I play against you."... and even though I was by no means one of the best players amongst my friends (I was roughly around the middle, to high middle or low high... and my total win/loss ratio was usually about 50/50) two of my friend's (one around the same 50/50 thing as I was, and the other being one of the top 3 players in our group who won more often then he lost against me) specifically pointed me out as the player they dreaded/disliked the most to play against, because they felt that I was to unpredictable and difficult to plan out their moves for, and of course that I did pull of "the impossible". Personally I feel that I am probably to predictable really, not to mention that most people who played against me seemed to have compleatly forgoten about all the times I misserably failed trying something stupid. XD
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  18. CariadocThorne

    CariadocThorne Member

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    Kent, England
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    I can't see why anyone would not field a thrower on defence (edit: assuming they have even half decent throwers at least). Sure, if one thrower is optimized for long range passing (accurate, pass, safe throw, strong arm and ag4 or higher) with no other skills, you might have him sit it out. But why not have a second thrower whose job is to loiter near the action, wait for you to knock the ball loose, then dash in, grab the ball and throw it to a team-mate in range of the endzone. Or even throwing it into empty space that you can reach next turn and your opponent can't.

    Would you rather pick up the ball and make multiple dodges through tackle zones? Or maybe stand there waiting to get hit next turn and hoping the ball carrier stays upright so you can try to blitz him clear?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  19. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    If you want Bash and Pass, definitely Dark Elves. High Elves can't really bash, and Humans are merely middling at passing (also: ST2 Catchers).

    Dark elves bash well, and while they don't pass as well as High Elves, that can be addressed with a few skills on a Runner to convert them into a Thrower. Your second Runner can make an excellent Catcher, since they can get Nerves of Steel on a normal roll. Catch is nice, but you can do without it.