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Perpetual league format?

Discussion in 'Crunch Cup' started by Jbecks, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    At the moment it is not allowed to return with teams who have played in a BBATTL tournament - but they are viable for future BBATTL tournaments, so they have simply changed circuit.
     
  2. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    I would roll Pro elfs...maybe skaven if it goes ahead! :p
     
  3. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    So I was thinking about how to have a racial cap, lets say you have 50 teams. And you have a racial cap of 20% the issue I can see, is if you could have 60% of the teams represented by all types of elves which could mean 30 of 50 are a type of elf leaving 20 teams of chaos, Orc, human etc now would the league balance it self out by tackle/diving tackle/ptail/tents becoming more important and counter this some how? Any ideas or input, suggestions or what have other leagues done?

    Or is it best just to have a complete open format? My only objection to that is having 5 or 6 Orc teams in a division soon gets a bit boring for instance.
     
  4. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    i have NO idea how you'd actually implement this, but you could always try to encourage "rivalries" within the same team.

    What if only 1 of each race was allowed per division. After the season ended, there could be an extra week in there for a showdown between any applicable races.

    Lets say there were 10 teams per division, the orcs in div 3 placed 2nd in their division and would jump up to division 2. The orcs in division 2 finished 6th and would stay put. After the season ends, the div 3 orcs get to play the div 2 orcs for their spot. Whoever wins gets div 2, and whoever loses gets Div 3.

    Lets say the D3 orcs placed 2nd and the D2 orcs placed 1st in their respective divisions. The D2 orcs would play the D1 orcs....the loser of that game would play the D3 orcs. Winner of game 1 gets D1, winner of game 2 gets D2. It would mean that the D1 team could drop to D3 even with a good record, or likewise the D2 people, even having won their division, could actually LOSE a division.

    Its certainly not person, and would inevitably piss people off, but it would make for a heck of a dynamic promotion/relegation system. The drawbacks would be that a certain team might be well built to block its mirror match teams from advancing (but could still get relegated due to a poor record!).

    The perks, on the other hand, would be huge:
    - The "good" teams, or just the most popular teams (Delves, ChDs, Orcs) would have the hardest time being promoted, having to not only place well enough to get promoted, but to then defeat their rivals in the next division up.
    - it would therefore encourage racial diversity. Less played teams (vampires, underworld, halflings, goblins, ogres) would rarely have any postseason competition for promoting themselves so would be encouraged. The least used team in the perpetual league becomes the most desirable from a metagame standpoint.
    - it would be "something new" - a new twist, considering the large number of perpetual leagues out there.


    Oh, i just thought of one potential bad drawback. Relegated teams would probably have to play those postseason matches too. If there were only 4 divisions, and the D3 orcs placed last, while the D4 orcs didn't do well enough for a promotion, then the D3 and D4 orcs would play, with the winner being in D4 and the loser getting kicked out? maybe they'd go on standby, and be allowed back in when the lowest division has an opening for that race (maybe even first dibs). It would WORK, but it would still result in some hurt feelings and sore players i think.


    sorry for the ridiculously long rant....just brainstorming a way to possibly include racial limits more than just "sorry, we have enough orcs, play something else"
     
  5. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    No Liz, No Skav, a dull league does make :p
     
  6. Dionysian

    Dionysian Well-Known Member

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    Before implementing racial restrictions it would be a good idea to take a look at NoBash. No longer having to worry about survival skills against stronger teams just meant Humans could become kings of bash and dominate in a way no bash team could under a full racial complement (because claw and other bash teams kept themselves in check via player destruction). The game is in no way 'balanced', nor is it meant to be, but it is full of soft counters (encouraging you to take skills to offset your disadvantages in these match ups) and racial restrictions just remove some of those counters, warping team development and throwing the system out of whack. At which point you end up with something absurd like NoBash.

    As a side note, people always worry about 'too much bash' (indicative of an unhealthy attachment to pixels), but occ shows that it's elves which are dominant under their perpetual 3-1-0 tier system; not a particular bash team nor bash in general. If you want to create a perpetual league that is different from occ, the first thing I'd do is make it a zero-sum points system. 2-1-0 rather than 3-1-0. This will encourage a greater take-up of non-elves and buff everyone else (including bash).

    Also as Ken points out trying to implement a blanket restriction on AV9 or AG4 isn't quite that simple.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  7. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    this is another reason i suggested the "1 of each race" setup mentioned above.

    It could even encourage people to play races they haven't tried before. It also ensures that there is no dwarfy or elfy floods of teams

    2 8-team subdivisions would give 16 teams per division, which is quite a spread of races. It would also make stunty teams more viable with seeding in the "higher TV" tier.
     
  8. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    I actually just started a team in No Bash and let me tell you...

    1) The Mighty Blow Tackler is king.

    2) Guard is highly sought after.

    Both of these are within easy easy reach on a human team, that can in turn actually field catchers to maintain speed parity (not a lot of strength higher than 3, dodge is everywhere on every team). As TV escalates they will spam tackle and have at least 5 guard while being deeper in bench and having the luxury of foulers where similar TV elf teams will have fewer players, fewer rerolls, and dodge will be a largely uneffective skill (not totally obviously, but the humans won't be spending skill ups on dodge to begin with so all the tackle those elves took will be useless TV as they need to counter their other elfy opponents!).

    I mention this because it is a unique evironment. In attempting to remove bash from the equation, they shifted the paradigm and subsequently the 'meta-game' adapted.

    i don't think that's something necessarily to discount, in the same way that the A.D.D. league's '40 second turn only' play creates a unique environment and thus shouldn't be discounted. Emulated? probably not. But limiting racial makeup, or creating artificial mirror-matches for league spots WILL have consequences that can't immediately be seen or were intended.

    A perpetual league format that limits racial make-up must be carefully, carefully considered.
     
  9. skullashtray

    skullashtray Active Member

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    I feel like blood bowl was never meant to be balanced and that attempts to balance it just lead to absurdly complicated solutions that don't work or only work in very arbitrary circumstances. If bbtactics is gonna have a perpetual league shouldn't it represent the diversity inherent with our online community. It should be wide open in my opinion
     
  10. skullashtray

    skullashtray Active Member

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    If it was wide open I'd be one of the first to join if it had limits and restrictions... I don't know
     
  11. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't suggesting no agi 4 or AV 9 just not the whole team, not a serious suggestion even then of course.
     
  12. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    So Scrap the idea of racial caps, just leave it for the coaches to decide if they feel a race is over played and if they love that race that much well so be it :D

    So I was thinking along the lines of, if a race is under represented lets throw a random number in the air to put my thoughts forward lets say less than 5% get a free admin win at the beginning of the season, less than 2.5% and have two admin wins at the start of the season. This is would benefit most of the weak races as people don't tend to coach them ie, Flings, Gobo's, Ogres and Vamps...you wont really see any tier1 teams under played.

    I would give a bigger than normal award for winners and runners up in terms of cash...and maybe allow the relegated teams an admin draw this may allow teams that get relegated due to taking lots of injuries a chance to rebuild with a free mvp and td with some cash???

    I'm hoping but limiting the size of the league you would keep it more personal, fun and hopefully not have divisions full of the same races....but at the same time be quite competitive without it going to serious.
     
  13. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I think racial balancing could be encouraged in a league environment through points rather than admin results (which are harder to manage).

    Lets say, for example, every race is assigned 12 points pre-season.

    Those 12 points could be divided between the number of teams representing that race.

    So if you have 6 Orc teams in the league, they only get 2 extra points each towards their final standing, while 3 Wood Elf teams would get 4 points each toward their standing, and so forth.

    It would take a bit of though to balance out the total points pools - maybe spread across broader categories (Chaos & Nurgle, Dwarf & Orc, Elf & Wood Elf etc), but it could make for an interesting balance of teams.
     
  14. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    In that case! You put the thought in as I'm not that good haha!

    So when so point bonus, as in they start with arguments sake a goblin team might start with a 3point lead before the league has started?

    The admin win idea was purely to receive some MVP, cash and bonus touchdowns the win would not be included in league standings and purely to give a little bonus before the season starts, and as it would most likely be the popular teams could give a free incentive every season
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  15. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    Have any decisions been made on the format of the next CC? Whilst i have a 5 match Underworld team waiting in the wings, i would still be keen to see an all rookie CC next season. And perhaps the following season it could return to the current format.
     
  16. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    There is not a new comish yet:powdodge:
     
  17. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    Seems like most of what it takes is just a little drive to start something.

    Example is Nik starting up CTALE after a quick discussion with GB and the Courier staff a season ago. He ran it (And ran it well i might add) and just cleared wit the big cheese.

    So maybe someone with some initiative can get it rolling. not me of course, I'm lazy as the day is long and twice as shiftless. ;)
     
  18. Jbecks

    Jbecks Member

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    Yeah I have a nod to run it, I just want to find a good way to encourage racial diversity
     
  19. Ken

    Ken Kenny the Mechanic

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    send me naughty pictures and I'll play any shitty race you want! I'll even play Pro Elves!
     
  20. Tjorne

    Tjorne Member

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    Pro Elves have their own naughty cheerleaders... is there any other reason to play them?

    That being said I'd welcome a perpetual league and would probably play in it.