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Strength Piling on - a trap skill?

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Supa, May 27, 2018.

  1. Supa

    Supa Member

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    Piling on is considered to be a no-brainer for many teams. But I honestly don't think that's a good skill. Now I'm mainly a Skaven coach so I don't have *that* much experience with bash, but in my opinion bash is about your team just slowly rolling through with strong and durable players and lots, lots of Guard, keeping your players standing.

    Of course bash teams have to cause damage and killers are indeed useful, especially on Blood Bowl 2 where MB and Claw can both be used to modify armor break. And Piling On does indeed cause lots of carnage, but not always.

    My biggest problem is that Piling On knocks your POMBer down too, making him vulnerable to a foul and losing a tackle zone on your turn! I think that a killer should blitz and then retreat back to his team mates (Both down sucks though if both players have block...). Having him lay down forces you to either cage him (which makes you weaker elsewhere) or exposed to a foul (Many develop a Dirty Player at some point).

    Bear in mind, I've probably played against Piling On 8-10 times but only lost once, when the POMBer was just unstoppable. Otherwise the killer has either been fouled to dust or my opponents focused a little bit too much on killing. My team suffered yes, but atleast I won those games! Skaven are cheap and even rookie Gutter Runners are dangerous. I also played against Piling On with Chaos Dwarves twice, so I've played against it with bash too.

    Piling On seems to be popular in Big Crunch too. After my conscription ends I will make a team and hope that I can prove others wrong, if I decide to go Chaos. :) ;) Still, I really need some verbal convincing too regarding Piling On. :D
     
  2. Deithwen

    Deithwen Active Member

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    It is a situational skill, one you don't use on every block, unless your killer is going to be secure on the ground or you deem the possibility of a removal worth the risk of piling on. It also might be extremely useful in conjunction with Jump Up, but for most teams you'd need a double for that. Overall, like most skills, it's very good in the hands of a good coach but could potentially lose you games if you use it wrong. It is of course very tempting to pile on some blocks you shouldn't, so if you are prone to greed maybe you shouldn't take it :)
     
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  3. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    It's a skill with tradeoffs and you have to be careful how you use it. Not taking it is a fine choice. BUT it makes a BIG difference to cas stats. bbtactics.com/armor-break-and-injury-tables/

    so you have to decide if it's worth it.
     
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  4. Supa

    Supa Member

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    I don't think greed would be an issue with me, although I agree with you. I'd be too scared to use the skill, hence why I opened this thread. :D
     
  5. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    Remember when they changed the rules for the boardgame in 2016 they made piling on take a reroll as well as putting you on the floor because they considered it too good.
    When it comes to removing players from the pitch Piling On is a lot better than MB or Claw. Being on the ground is a disadvantage but as long as you take care when you PO it is a skill that can win you games.
    Piling onto a skaven linemen when you haven't broken armour and will get fouled back is a bad idea. Against a stunned star gutter I would do it every time as trading your killer for gutter is a good value.
     
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  6. Supa

    Supa Member

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    I think the wording was "Piling on could be combined with other skills to create nasty combos" or something like that. Not necessarily meaning that it was too good winning wise (although it does sometimes win you games, sometimes it does nothing) but it really does hurt others, especially high AV. Some coaches focus too much on the fighting side of the game and forget the ball completely, instead stacking PO on their team and just damaging their opponent (not in Big Crunch really from what I've watched). I think that this would be one reason why it was removed, so that players would develop their players in different ways.

    Chaos for an example are one of the best teams later on. With very high Strength and Guard, along with a claw or two they can outbash bash teams, while mutations can make then especially nasty against elves. They really shouldn't be considered as an "advanced team". Life gets easier as soon as you get block, the problem is that people play them wrong. Even Jervis Johnson has mentioned this I believe.

    But indeed, Piling On is good at removing players, no doubt. I still am not convinced enough that the tradeoff isn't that critical, but that's just me. :)
     
  7. JaspersaurusRex

    JaspersaurusRex Active Member

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    Piling on has the ability to remove the 0lay er you hit and the player fouling you.....that's how 8 look at it haha.
     
  8. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    https://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/playbooks/On_Rampage.pdf

    Scroll to page 2. Piling On is a skill that generally you want 1 or 2 of for a lot of teams. If you are coaching rats I would definitely take it on the Storm Vermin after MB (but if you get a double take the claw of course). As eg Norse it is almost essential, you need to remove players before they remove you. Obviously you need to think about whether you use it all the time or not, Jump Up just makes it even better.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  9. Supa

    Supa Member

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    Since Norse can't run away due to Frenzy, I guess they should indeed go all in and take PO. Same could be said of Dwarf Troll Slayers. Bah, didn't like Norse anyways... :D

    Skaven Blitzers could bring the pain, but I've found both standing up with Guard more useful for me (actually I've never rolled doubles for a Skaven Blitzer, despite playing them the most with my hundreds of hours of this game). Skaven can win shorthanded and sending my blitzer at them to be exposed for fouling seems once again abit too risky in my opinion.
     
  10. denthegod

    denthegod New Member

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    Wow, thank you guys for making this thread. I built a killer vampire with Mighty Blow and Piling On and now realized how lucky I was to not get the vamp killed as I was just throwing out the PO willy nilly last night in the first game with it. I'm a beginner and damn, do I have a lot to learn.

    Today's lesson: THINK before I hit the Piling On option any other option for that matter.

    Thank you guys for the informative thread.
     
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  11. Sleepyjer

    Sleepyjer New Member

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    I'm relatively new but used to play skaven with Sv going the guard etc route. Then started going killer route and much better to have a threat. Agree with the greed thing...far too tempting. Sure I read somewhere that most useful if you've already stunned as then getting a free (ish)injury roll. Also if just MB and you're hitting say an orc..,you're just rerollimg to break armour which is still 10+ so putting down one of your main players for no reason. Also sometimes I think I want my Sv on the floor...they can't foul everyone!
     
  12. Sleepyjer

    Sleepyjer New Member

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    I'm relatively new but used to play skaven with Sv going the guard etc route. Then started going killer route and much better to have a threat. Agree with the greed thing...far too tempting. Sure I read somewhere that most useful if you've already stunned as then getting a free (ish)injury roll. Also if just MB and you're hitting say an orc..,you're just rerollimg to break armour which is still 10+ so putting down one of your main players for no reason. Also sometimes I think I want my Sv on the floor...they can't foul everyone!
     
  13. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes the floor is on fact the safest place to be
     
  14. Borke

    Borke Well-Known Member

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    My two cents (and a bit) on Piling On:

    1) Even if you have the skill, you don't have to use it every time. Judge the situation. Remember that Piling On allows you to reroll either the armor break or the injury attempt. So if you already broke armor, and just need to succeed on the injury roll, it's a much better opportunity to use Piling On, than if you failed the armor roll. Also, if you succeeded the armor roll without using Mighty Blow, it's an even better indicator that Piling On might be worth it in the situation. Finally: Consider whether your target is worth the risk of a potential counter-foul. If the target is a potentially match-winning player (and this is the first and possibly the only shot you will get at him), that's probably a good Piling On situation. If all your team mates are in the vicinity, and the opponent can't get to you for a foul if you Pile On, that's probably also good then, even on a lower value target.

    2) Piling On is different for different teams. Others have already pointed out that a Chaos Dwarf Blocker with Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On is usually surrounded by 2 to 4 other Chaos Dwarf Blockers, many with Guard, armed to the teeth - it's usually safe to Pile On with this player, he's well protected by his buddies. A Stormvermin or Skaven Blitzer on the other hand (no matter whether it's Skaven or Underworld) doesn't have many strong buddies to fall back on. So if he uses Piling On and ends up on the floor, the opponent often has an easy time isolating him for follow-up fouls (or just simply more blocks if he stands up). Nevertheless, I think Piling On is a useful skill even on Stormvermin (after MB, Tackle, Claw) and Skaven Blitzers (after MB, Claw, Tackle, Horns) - I just wouldn't use it as often.

    3) Piling On is a psychological tool. People play for different reasons, but a lot of them tend to care for their players. If you have a POMB or even ClawPOMB player, and you use him once or twice at the start of the match (maybe even causing casualties in the process), many opponents will change their play style. You can use that to your advantage. Some opponents might not care about their players, or might care about winning more, but I've found that more often than not, people do react.

    4) Many coaches use Piling On wrong. Don't look at the average COL coach's use of Piling On and then judge that it is a bad skill. Look at how the best coaches use Piling On, and then draw your conclusions.
     
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  15. BallztotheWalla

    BallztotheWalla Member

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    ^^^
    What Borke says x1000

    It an essential skill on any team with st acces.
    I’ve played way over a 1000 matches with piling on and it brings so much reliability to removing players that you should always take it On as many players as possible.
    Even if you just use it on the line of scrimmage where it’s safe it’s still worth it.


    1 pomp players is easily avoided and fouled but 2+ pomp players cant be fouled or avoided and can cycle the blitz so you always have one in position.

    If you only have 1 you can only Use him every other turn in most cases.
     
  16. Supa

    Supa Member

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    Now this was my biggest issue and why I made this post in the first place. Stacking your team with piling on means that your players are going to be down a lot, which means that your opponent has much easier time with the ball. It might cause some damage, but games aren't won purely by bashing (touchdowns matter), although bashing is a tool to get some touchdowns.

    I'm quite convinced now however that it is indeed useful skill to give later in development, especially by @Borke. I've been watching bad games apparently although lately I've spent time watching Altdwarf where they don't use it that mindlessly.

    It's just that I value positioning so much. With good positioning you should get some good blocks in if an all-out brawl breaks out and I really need to have as much guard up as possible. I also found out my Skaven blitzers with guard valuable, although I'm tempted to try to play with one killer in the future.

    tldr: I guess piling on is worth the 20k TV, even if it is used only a couple of times in a game. I just feel like many players focus their attention too much to the skill and forget the ball totally.
     
  17. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    Personally I don't like guard on skaven blitzers before MB and tackle. The reason being that it means you move one of your best players in to lend the assist and then throw the block with a linerat. Also it usually leaves the blitzer getting hit next turn. That said whenever I have played skaven I have managed to roll a couple of doubles on other players.

    As you say PO is generally worth 20K even if all it does is turn a stunned into a KO.
     
  18. BallztotheWalla

    BallztotheWalla Member

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    In regard to positioning you have to remember that even if you pile on every turn you will still, at worst, have the same number of players prone as your opponent since you only pile on if you already broke av (or if position is safe anyway)

    And regarding fouling then the opponent must give up positioning to get assist on the foul and risk getting ejected.

    You can’t foul and keep an elf screen up at the same time..
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  19. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    I agree. In my opinion with skaven keeping your SV mobile is much more important than providing a guard assist. You're not going to win many bash wars, and getting players in contact is only for desperate times. With four gutters it's not unlikely to get a double on a block one and get your much needed mobile guard there. He has a much better chance to get the guard where it's needed when you need that hole. SV are just too easily tied up.

    As for Piling On for SV in particular I'm all for it. I take MB and Tackle first, and Claw on a double. And you will find that player aggressively fouled by your opposition, so you either use it wisely or do not have it for long. But if you can get an early casualty or knockout against a bashier team it can really help. It improves the unlikely event of outbashing them, but also provides a much greater chance of scoring without risk and being able to stall for a reasonable amount of time when needed.

    On bash teams like Chorfs and Chaos it can be devastating if its on four or more players and is backed with MB/claw. When it doesn't work it leaves them completely out of position. It's certainly a high variance build.
     
  20. DumbName

    DumbName New Member

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    [​IMG]

    If you can use it to take an opposing player off the pitch and gain a numerical advantage or mitigate a numerical disadvantage then it's useful. The key is when and where you use it. Nuffle favors the bold but not the foolish. :)